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28 Mar 2024, 12:37 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 23 Apr 2018, 01:53 
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Joined: 05/29/13
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Location: Marquette, Michigan; Scottsdale, AZ, Telluride
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Username Protected wrote:
Does the Klingon require an SPE? I didn’t think it did.

No, it doesn't, but the plane I buy has a good chance it will.

Present candidates are SII+FJ44, or V Ultra.

Possible I get 501SP+FJ44.

My understanding is that the type rating course can be done SP or crew and I would select SP.

Mike C.


I just went with a CJ2. I think fuel prices are going up.
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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 23 Apr 2018, 08:05 
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Joined: 10/05/11
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Username Protected wrote:
Does the Klingon require an SPE? I didn’t think it did.

No, it doesn't, but the plane I buy has a good chance it will.

Present candidates are SII+FJ44, or V Ultra.

Possible I get 501SP+FJ44.

My understanding is that the type rating course can be done SP or crew and I would select SP.

Mike C.


Surprised to see Williams power based on past posts.

I wish them (Williams) luck when your inspection time comes around. :D
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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 23 Apr 2018, 08:08 
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Joined: 10/27/10
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Location: Cambridge, MA (KLWM)
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Username Protected wrote:
Surprised to see Williams power based on past posts.

I wish them (Williams) luck when your inspection time comes around. :D
Now, THAT is a 3-day pay-per-view event that would kill it with the BT crowd... :coffee:


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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 23 Apr 2018, 09:10 
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Joined: 12/03/14
Posts: 19252
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Company: Ciholas, Inc
Location: KEHR
Aircraft: C560V
Username Protected wrote:
Surprised to see Williams power based on past posts.

Williams FJ44 is $155/hour per engine to be on the TAP Blue program. Covers HSI (aka "check 3"), OH (aka "check 4"), some routine stuff in between, and corrosion, FOD, and unscheduled events. Also includes rental engines during engine work. Historically, Williams price increases have been relatively modest, inflation tracking plus maybe 1% or so.

JT15D is about $70K HSI and $400K OH over 3500 hours. Can vary depending on various cycles and blades installed. This works out to $134/hour per engine. The routine stuff between major events is about $15/hour per engine, so we are up to $149/hour.

The JT15D burns, roughly, 10 gallons more per hour per engine than the FJ44. At $3.50/gallon, works out to about $35 more per hour. Now we are up to $184/hour effective per engine. The fuel savings factor for FJ44 will get larger if fuel prices increase. Fuel savings also translate into more range, which can save a fuel stop and thus significant costs.

The JT15D plan does not include corrosion, FOD, or unscheduled events protection, nor rental engines. An unscheduled event would change the economics quite a lot.

The JT15D equipped airplane is slower than the FJ44, so there's yet more advantage in terms of airframe costs, more miles per dollar for the FJ44.

So, when considering full life cycle costs, the FJ44 is cheaper than a JT15D.

There are ways in which the JT15D might be cheaper than the FJ44. One, as a part 91 operator, I can do HSI and not OH, so that extends the life of the engine at much reduced rate per hour. Two, I can buy used engines when a major event comes up instead of OH mine. Three, Williams could, at any time, jack FJ44 prices through the roof and I have no recourse (though Pratt can do the same for JT15D parts). Four, if I get engines with significant time remaining, then I never face a major event and I fly for 10+ years that way. When it is time to sell, who knows what the market value will be for the airplane, it could be less than all the payments I would have made to Williams, so I could end up being better off not on program and selling the plane for scrap.

So this is not a simple equation.

Quote:
I wish them (Williams) luck when your inspection time comes around. :D

Since they set the rules, there's no luck involved on their end.

Mike C.

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Last edited on 23 Apr 2018, 17:33, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 23 Apr 2018, 09:28 
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Joined: 06/09/09
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Aircraft: C182P, Merlin IIIC
Williams engines bring Citations into range of King Air fuel economy.

If fuel ups significantly then Klingon prices (among numerous other types) will depress further. The low fuel prices of the last couple of years have breathed some new life into old jets.


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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 23 Apr 2018, 10:23 
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Joined: 05/29/13
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Company: Easy Ice, LLC
Location: Marquette, Michigan; Scottsdale, AZ, Telluride
Aircraft: C510,C185,C310,R66
Username Protected wrote:
Williams engines bring Citations into range of King Air fuel economy.

If fuel ups significantly then Klingon prices (among numerous other types) will depress further. The low fuel prices of the last couple of years have breathed some new life into old jets.



Exactly.

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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 23 Apr 2018, 10:43 
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Joined: 09/04/10
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I've seen 1 hour (ish) legs in the CJ2 come in around 180 gallons (including taxi). CJ's still burn a lot of fuel if you don't get up high.

How much do you burn in a II if kept down low?

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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 23 Apr 2018, 10:46 
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Gotta say, I'm pretty excited to hear the details of the "Mike/Michael 2018" meet-up.

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John Lockhart
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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 23 Apr 2018, 10:58 
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Joined: 12/03/14
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Username Protected wrote:
Gotta say, I'm pretty excited to hear the details of the "Mike/Michael 2018" meet-up.

Reality TV meets BT.

Wondering if we can get "bird of prey" call sign.

Does turning off the transponder enable the cloak? What N1% is warp 3?

Not sure the manual I have covers all these special features.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 23 Apr 2018, 11:02 
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Joined: 12/03/14
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Username Protected wrote:
If fuel ups significantly then Klingon prices (among numerous other types) will depress further.

Lack of ADS-B capability will shake the market down far sooner than fuel prices.

I plan to own the next plane 10+ years, so I'm not basing my decision on what the market value will be in the future, but on the value I can derive from owning the airplane. If the plane is worth something at the end, that's a bonus, but not something I am counting on.

In the end, planes that provide the best performance for the money will be still valued on the market.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 23 Apr 2018, 11:07 
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If you go Klingon...I suggest you make a mx contract with Michael also!

Great way to get the type and is exactly what my Merlin trainer wanted me to do back in 2013. Very generous offer of Michael to make.


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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 23 Apr 2018, 11:26 
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Joined: 01/08/11
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Location: California
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Quote:
V Ultra


Have you flown it?

I can't see how the rest of the list could survive.

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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 23 Apr 2018, 12:02 
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Joined: 12/24/07
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Location: Akron, Ohio
Aircraft: C550 - C560
Username Protected wrote:
I've seen 1 hour (ish) legs in the CJ2 come in around 180 gallons (including taxi). CJ's still burn a lot of fuel if you don't get up high.

How much do you burn in a II if kept down low?


John

Most of our flights are long 3 hr 920 nm legs but before we got our RVSM approval and flying around 28k we were burning about 190 gph average at 104% and since RVSM approval at 36/38k we are in the 150 gph range. I don't really track our burn rates just look at the bill and say dang. :D

You can run the numbers either in the Foreflight Preformance data or fltplan and they pretty much show the similar numbers.

Gary


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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 23 Apr 2018, 13:18 
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Joined: 12/03/14
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Username Protected wrote:
Great way to get the type and is exactly what my Merlin trainer wanted me to do back in 2013.

Yes, the experience will be hugely beneficial.

Quote:
Very generous offer of Michael to make.

Indeed, far in excess of what is expected. I wouldn't hand over my MU2 to someone like that, for example.

I will, of course, let him withdraw the offer for any reason at any time. He should not be made to suffer for a brief moment of insanity.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 23 Apr 2018, 13:58 
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Joined: 11/25/16
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Username Protected wrote:
Quote:
V Ultra


Have you flown it?

I can't see how the rest of the list could survive.

That's what I was wondering. Isn't it the V Ultra that climbs like a rocketship?


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