BeechTalk - BT

Username Protected · **Posted:** 14 Jan 2023, 15:13

FYI, Bacon has had ODA authority for years, no need for FSDO approval.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 14 Jan 2023, 15:33

Username Protected wrote:

I hear about calibration of the AOA. But where is the adjustment mechanism for the calibration and who does that?

In my MM (maintenance manual), there is a procedure to calibrate the AOA. There are adjustments on the AOA computer box to set what it reads depending on the vane and flap position.

The procedure is to know the weight precisely and set a certain AOA based on speed. It is inaccurate (and somewhat dangerous) to set AOA based on actual stall AOA. You do a flight test while you adjust the settings on the computer.

Mike C.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 14 Jan 2023, 15:39

Username Protected wrote:

FYI, Bacon has had ODA authority for years, no need for FSDO approval.

Their website seems not to mention that:

https://www.baconaviation.com/citationluip

It shows phase 5 increased to 6 years (not 8), phase 1-4 to 3 years (not 4).

It says "WE WORK WITH THE FAA TO GET YOUR 91.409(F)(4) INSPECTION PROGRAM (AIP) APPROVED". That doesn't sound like they can approve it themselves.

When I talked to them, it seemed to matter which FSDO district I was in, which wouldn't be the case is they had full control over the approval.

Maybe things have changed, but I don't see that in evidence.

Mike C.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 14 Jan 2023, 15:40

Username Protected wrote:

Where did you get the maintenance manuals for your plane? Digital or the bound version?

Textron.

Digital.

PDFs I "printed" from their subscription service.

Mike C.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 14 Jan 2023, 17:02

Username Protected wrote:

FYI, Bacon has had ODA authority for years, no need for FSDO approval.

Their website seems not to mention that:

https://www.baconaviation.com/citationluip

It shows phase 5 increased to 6 years (not 8), phase 1-4 to 3 years (not 4).

It says "WE WORK WITH THE FAA TO GET YOUR 91.409(F)(4) INSPECTION PROGRAM (AIP) APPROVED". That doesn't sound like they can approve it themselves.

When I talked to them, it seemed to matter which FSDO district I was in, which wouldn't be the case is they had full control over the approval.

Maybe things have changed, but I don't see that in evidence.

Mike C.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 15 Jan 2023, 08:09

Username Protected wrote:

Probably best to get it N registered first, then LUMP.

Mike C.

Thanks a 1,000,000 Mike , that's exactly what I was looking for !

BTW: We would be declaring the Program at the same time of registration and AW Cert Inspection with the DAR, so me thinks probably best have it signed-up from day 1.

Also, Bacon charges MORE for non-US based aircraft since he now has to deal with the IFO in NY rather than his "friendly" local FSDO.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 15 Jan 2023, 08:53

Username Protected wrote:

BTW: We would be declaring the Program at the same time of registration and AW Cert Inspection with the DAR, so me thinks probably best have it signed-up from day 1.

Let us know how it turns out.

Quote:

Also, Bacon charges MORE for non-US based aircraft since he now has to deal with the IFO in NY rather than his "friendly" local FSDO.

Others have given the impression the ODA skips the FSDO, but maybe that's not entirely true?

Mike C.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 15 Jan 2023, 11:08

You can LUMP a Williams Eagle II now with Textron

Username Protected · **Posted:** 15 Jan 2023, 11:14

Username Protected wrote:

Others have given the impression the ODA skips the FSDO, but maybe that's not entirely true?
Mike C.

Any program (other than the generic OEM) is a "one-off" assigned to the specific tail number and validated by the FAA, so I would think that's at the local FSDO level.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 15 Jan 2023, 20:18

Username Protected wrote:

You can LUMP a Williams Eagle II now with Textron

I know of only one reported example of this, and Textron provides a LUMP entirely at their whim. I would not assume this will be true for any particular airplane in the future until you confirm it with Textron.

My comments come from the fact Textron was pretty adamant about not giving LUMPs to FJ44 conversions of 500 series airplanes when I asked earlier.

Mike C.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 16 Jan 2023, 10:45

Here's a new thread about an old CJ2+ incident:

viewtopic.php?f=41&t=215357

Not about the 501 per se, but the CJ2+ had a stuck AoA vane that may have contributed to the high-altitude upset. Failed seal and water ingress on the vane unit.

AoA gauges on Citations seem to be in various states of disrepair and mis-calibration from what I've read so far.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 16 Jan 2023, 12:14

I manage and fly 8 citations, no 500 series though. All of our AOA gauges work well and are consistent, except our CJ2+ which shows erroneously high AOA above FL290. I've been in a battle with Textron and Insight over this, they just shrug their shoulders. We've calibrated it and replaced the computer.

-Citation Jet Exchange

Username Protected · **Posted:** 17 Jan 2023, 04:57

Username Protected wrote:

our CJ2+ which shows erroneously high AOA above FL290.

The CJ2+ AoA computer has an input for a barometric switch that is triggered above FL300 to activate the stick shaker at a lower AoA. Not sure if this also affects the readout on the gauge. May or may not be related to your issue.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 17 Jan 2023, 12:20

I wanted to brag on my bird a bit. Highest ever GS and TAS yesterday on our way home from KAXX. Our normal TAS is 365 but was cruising at 372 yesterday. The big difference is that we nearly maxed out the nose baggage. Normally when we are going to fill the nose I will remove the 130lbs of rocks I keep there as ballast for CG. But in this case the plane was going to be sitting out at KAXX and snow was forecast during our stay. I was worried about snow accumulating on the horizontal stabilizer with an empty nose so I left the rocks in. Maybe having extra weight in the nose allowed the extra 7 knots of TAS?

Attachment:

PXL_20230116_232031512.jpg

Username Protected · **Posted:** 17 Jan 2023, 12:40

Username Protected wrote:

Another issue is the airplane becoming technically unairworthy upon sale. If any inspection is not up to date under the standard factory program, which is typical for LUMP/LUIP programs, then it becomes unairworthy immediately upon sale under the somewhat twisted FAA guidance (which I think is wrong, but it will take a court case to fix, alas). To get the plane airworthy, you have two options, either perform the deficient inspections to bring it up to date to the standard program, or not fly the airplane until you get another LUMP/LUIP program adopted. This can be a major issue for a new owner and thus affect your sale price.

But the new owner would still have to comply with the latest version of the maintenance manual (assuming the previous owner froze the version as I did on your advice). This is another benefit for having the plane in an LLC. That way upon sale you just change the ownership of the LLC. There is no ownership change wrt the FAA and therefore no change in maintenance programs or maintenance manual revision.

Citation 501sp