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28 Mar 2024, 08:34 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 30 Jan 2018, 19:41 
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I doubt that. My DOC runs just under $900/hr including parts and engine reserves.


With a fully amortized legacy airframe/engines such as this (i.e. the pane gets parted out when the motors are dead), the Klingon's DOC are probably $525 + whatever we guess hourly parts costs are. Parts are cheap and there's not much to break. So it's definitely cheaper to operate than a newish Mustang. Granted, I don't think this is being entirely fair to your number because we aren't exactly comparing apples to apples.

I'll be the first to man up and admit it if I'm wrong but I don't think the DOC of the Klingon is going to get anywhere close to $900. Throwing in all costs including cost of capital and the Klingon is going to be significantly cheaper than a newer Mustang.

The Klingon offers the same speed/range as a Mustang, much better cabin, and much better payload. The only downside is a slightly higher fuel burn (90GPH up high for you, 115GPH for me). This of course ignores your new plane smell and gorgeous avionics.


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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 30 Jan 2018, 19:54 
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And even if my cost projections are way off, it doesn't matter because the CEO of Klingon Air absolutely freaking loves the thing and that's all that matters!


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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 30 Jan 2018, 20:21 
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Location: KEHR
Aircraft: C560V
Username Protected wrote:
Without assistance from programs, I'd double that number.

With programs, triple it.

Part programs pay for factory new parts at list prices.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 30 Jan 2018, 20:33 
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Joined: 12/24/07
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Location: Akron, Ohio
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Username Protected wrote:
I doubt that. My DOC runs just under $900/hr including parts and engine reserves.


With a fully amortized legacy airframe/engines such as this (i.e. the pane gets parted out when the motors are dead), the Klingon's DOC are probably $525 + whatever we guess hourly parts costs are. Parts are cheap and there's not much to break. So it's definitely cheaper to operate than a newish Mustang.

I'll be the first to man up and admit it if I'm wrong but I don't think the DOC of the Klingon is going to get anywhere close to $900. Throwing in all costs including cost of capital and the Klingon is going to be significantly cheaper than a newer Mustang.


I hope your right but since you didn’t have a prebuy inspection done a few surprises may arise such as a rebuilt ACM turbine 25k, gear overhaul 20k, windshield replacements once you have three consecutive cracks in the bolt holes 15k each plus anywhere from 80 to 100 hrs to replace each, elevator servo 8k, etc, etc.

Good luck with your plane but there are things in the that get real expensive real fast used parts or not some parts are going to have to come from Cessna.

Gary

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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 30 Jan 2018, 20:35 
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And even if my cost projections are way off, it doesn't matter because the CEO of Klingon Air absolutely freaking loves the thing and that's all that matters!


Damn straight........and dat's the facts Jack!!!

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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 30 Jan 2018, 20:58 
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Joined: 01/01/10
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Location: Roseburg, Oregon
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The only downside is a slightly higher fuel burn (90GPH up high for you, 115GPH for me). This of course ignores your new plane smell and gorgeous avionics.

75GPH up high for me.

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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 30 Jan 2018, 21:01 
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I hope your right but since you didn’t have a prebuy inspection done a few surprises may arise such as a rebuilt ACM turbine 25k, gear overhaul 20k, windshield replacements once you have three consecutive cracks in the bolt holes 15k each plus anywhere from 80 to 100 hrs to replace each, elevator servo 8k, etc, etc.

Good luck with your plane but there are things in the that get real expensive real fast used parts or not some parts are going to have to come from Cessna.

Gary[/quote]

Plane had an extensive prebuy before I bought it, a bad boroscope and subsequent hot inspection (previous deal killed but great for me) after 30 hours and some long trips I have confidence it's in good shape. Regardless I can buy an air cycle machine for 5k or a servo for $2k it's not that bad. 80 hours to replace a screwed in windshield? That doesn't jive with my experience replacing eclipse windshields


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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 30 Jan 2018, 21:07 
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Username Protected wrote:
The only downside is a slightly higher fuel burn (90GPH up high for you, 115GPH for me). This of course ignores your new plane smell and gorgeous avionics.

75GPH up high for me.


At 390 I saw 550 in a mustang, the Klingon is 750; that's a rounding error for the same speed with 500lbs in more payload with a bigger cabin

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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 30 Jan 2018, 21:52 
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Joined: 01/01/10
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Location: Roseburg, Oregon
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500pph is a typical high-altitude FF in the Mustang. FL400 - FL410.

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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 30 Jan 2018, 21:55 
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Location: Akron, Ohio
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Username Protected wrote:
Plane had an extensive prebuy before I bought it, a bad boroscope and subsequent hot inspection (previous deal killed but great for me) after 30 hours and some long trips I have confidence it's in good shape. Regardless I can buy an air cycle machine for 5k or a servo for $2k it's not that bad. 80 hours to replace a screwed in windshield? That doesn't jive with my experience replacing eclipse windshields


The elevator servo rebuild is 8k, the other servos are cheaper, you may find a used part for 2k but if it’s quits in 1 or 2 years what have you gained and the same goes for a rebuilt ACM turbine is 25k.

This ain’t no eclipse, the book estimate is 80 hrs+ on the pilot side window and 110 hrs on the front glass. Was there a prism inspection done on the prebuy? The glass only comes from Cessna, 15k each for the outer glass and 7k for the inside window. The side glass has two windows, but the front is cheap as there is only one on each side. The phase 1 inspection includes the prism and if you have glass near 20years old you might want to check your 401k balance.

We had a through prebuy done by us and it was 100k. These are great planes but I’m just saying. :peace:

Good luck with yours

Gary


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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 31 Jan 2018, 11:19 
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Location: Little Rock, Ar
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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 31 Jan 2018, 23:15 
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Joined: 09/27/08
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They are fabulous planes. Built like trucks. LOTS of parts availability. Safe. Fly like big 172's. Unlimited life airframes. Just great all around airplanes.

Mike you made a smart decision.


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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 01 Feb 2018, 10:33 
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500pph is a typical high-altitude FF in the Mustang. FL400 - FL410.

Clint, what is your TAS at that altitude/burn?

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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 01 Feb 2018, 11:41 
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Joined: 01/01/10
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Location: Roseburg, Oregon
Aircraft: Citation Mustang
FL410 - 330 kts / 500pph near ISA

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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 01 Feb 2018, 16:48 
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Username Protected wrote:
FL410 - 330 kts / 500pph near ISA


Klingon at FL410 is virtually identical in speed at 700pph ISA.

Eclipse was 350 PPH at 350kts; now that's some serious efficiency!

Both the Eclipse and the Klingon Bird of Prey run at out steam and usually wouldn't make 410 unless ideal temps or after burning off some gas. Is the Mustang similar?

Both Citations are excellent machines with a clearly shared DNA.


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