BeechTalk - BT

Username Protected · **Posted:** 02 May 2018, 23:29

Username Protected wrote:

The exemption is good for 12 calendar months and must then be renewed.

Slight clarification:

A single-pilot authorization will be valid for 12 calendar months. A person who renews a single-pilot authorization in the calendar month before or after the calendar month in which it is due is considered to have renewed the single-pilot authorization when due.

Like the 61.58 check, you get a grace month either way.

Quote:

Also for the record, the only time a pilot will receive a SIC required limitation on their certificate is if they takes a crew ride on either a 501 or 551. The restriction is not placed on the 500, 550, or 560 series since those planes are already certified under part 25 as two pilot crew.

If a pilot gets a CE-500 type rating, as a 2 man crew, in a 500/550/560, can they fly a 501SP/551SP with no further requirements? That is, the CE-500 type rating allows one to operate 501SP/551SP without further training?

Can a pilot request a single pilot check ride in a 500/550/560?

If a pilot does a single pilot check ride in a 501SP/551SP, are they eligible for crew operations in a 500/550/560?

I'm really confused about how the type rating, check ride, crew, single pilot, 500/550/560, 501SP/551SP, SPE, all work. Seems like a really jumbled up set of requirements and rules.

Anybody made a flow chart?

Mike C.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 03 May 2018, 03:35

Here is the best explanation of the C500 type ratings I have seen from the CII thread:

Steven Scates wrote:

This stuff is confusing to examiners and pilots alike. Bottom line, the II is a FAR 25 bird, the IISP, a FAR 23 bird, thus the different requirements for training. They fly exactly the same.

Probably just confused some, but thought I'd throw it out there.

Good Evening Steven,

You hit the nail on the head with that one. I don't know that I've ever run into a single topic that generated as much confusion and which was compounded by so much incorrect information as the single pilot exemption options for the CE500 series. - I'm not suggesting that anything you have offered is incorrect, just agreeing with what you've already stated.

Part of the problem is that there are quite a few exemptions floating around out there now and while most of them provide the same privileges (most allow for single pilot ops in any CE500 series airplane that meets the minimum equipment requirements mentioned above) there is just enough variation to generate mass confusion.

The 4050 exemption you mentioned is "owned" by Cessna and I believe it's the exemption that Flight Safety typically uses.

Sierra Industries holds exemption 5517. It is subject to the aircraft being outfitted with certain STCs. I don't believe Sierra is using their exemption much anymore.

Shannon & Associates, LLC holds exemption 6480. This is one of the oddballs as it is somehow tied to a specific aircraft serial number as an STC and also has a specific exclusion that it MAY NOT be utilized in any CE500 series aircraft having the landing gear control located to the right of the aircraft center line.

I fly under exemption 10004B which is owned by Front Range Executive Flight Training. It allows single pilot ops in all CE500 series aircraft (500, 550, S550, 552, 560). I believe the 4050 exemption works this way as well.

There are several others and all of them have slight differences. Things like minimum pilot time, medical certificate requirements, types of approaches permitted, etc. Again, just enough to really get everyone good and confused when it comes time to select your training vendor!

Of course to be eligible for any of these exemptions one must first hold a CE500 type rating. That means that if you want to get your initial type rating and single pilot waiver at the same time (as I did) you get to go through two full check rides, more or less back-to-back. The first ride is of course your initial CE500 type ride, once that is satisfactorily completed and signed off then you turn around and do a second full type ride for your SPW, only this time you don't get to use the DE as your second in command (naturally). Depending on the wording in the exemption being used you may also have a few additional maneuvers (circling approaches) to complete that aren't part of the initial CE500 type ride.

With regard to training costs on the 551 vs the 550 with SPW. Now that the annual SPW renewal check ride has been deemed to meet the requirements of the 61.58 ride, I suspect that the annual training costs are quite similar between the two planes. I would venture to say that well over 90% of the part 91 operators out there will be subject to insurance requirements calling for formal annual recurrent training and I don't expect that there is much difference between the cost of a recurrent session with a 61.58 ride in a 551 (per the new requirements) and a recurrent session with a SPW renewal ride in a 550. Note - not all of the exemptions have been approved to meet the requirements of a 61.58 ride, so it is possible that a person may have to do both a yearly 61.58 ride and a SPW renewal ride if they happen to be operating under one of the exemptions that has not been approved.

To me, I have a hard time accepting the idea that the 551, with its lower gross weight is a more valuable aircraft than a 550 when you take into consideration the availability and relative ease of the various single pilot exemptions out there. I understand that there's always a chance that the FAA could refuse to renew the exemptions or even pull them all together, but I think (I hope) that the chances of that are pretty unlikely, unless of course a bunch of us SPW guys start burying our birds in smoking holes in the ground.

I think Dave is on the right track. The 551 doesn't meet his needs (payload) and the S550 doesn't really offer any additional capability that would be advantageous on the majority of his missions beyond what the straight 550 already offers so there's not much sense in spending the extra money.

One thing is for certain. When Dave finally pulls the trigger, he's going to be very happy that he did so! - We'll probably have to start a new thread for that! ha ha

John V

Username Protected · **Posted:** 03 May 2018, 07:25

What about the operational cost between a late 501SP and an early model CitationJet?

The price delta is coming down so that it appears to be about $500k or so more to get a straight CJ - Would the opex be about the same (or less) with a CJ?

Robert

Username Protected · **Posted:** 03 May 2018, 07:42

Username Protected wrote:

The exemption is good for 12 calendar months and must then be renewed.

Slight clarification:

A single-pilot authorization will be valid for 12 calendar months. A person who renews a single-pilot authorization in the calendar month before or after the calendar month in which it is due is considered to have renewed the single-pilot authorization when due.

Like the 61.58 check, you get a grace month either way.

Quote:

Also for the record, the only time a pilot will receive a SIC required limitation on their certificate is if they takes a crew ride on either a 501 or 551. The restriction is not placed on the 500, 550, or 560 series since those planes are already certified under part 25 as two pilot crew.

If a pilot gets a CE-500 type rating, as a 2 man crew, in a 500/550/560, can they fly a 501SP/551SP with no further requirements? That is, the CE-500 type rating allows one to operate 501SP/551SP without further training?

Can a pilot request a single pilot check ride in a 500/550/560?

If a pilot does a single pilot check ride in a 501SP/551SP, are they eligible for crew operations in a 500/550/560?

I'm really confused about how the type rating, check ride, crew, single pilot, 500/550/560, 501SP/551SP, SPE, all work. Seems like a really jumbled up set of requirements and rules.

Anybody made a flow chart?

Mike C.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 03 May 2018, 09:43

Username Protected wrote:

Part of the problem is that there are quite a few exemptions floating around out there now and while most of them provide the same privileges (most allow for single pilot ops in any CE500 series airplane that meets the minimum equipment requirements mentioned above) there is just enough variation to generate mass confusion.

Starting 2012, the FAA decided to make the exemptions uniform, or at least as uniform as they can be. All the SPEs are essentially the same now with the variations being mostly limited to whether the vendor does it with sim or not.

Quote:

The 4050 exemption you mentioned is "owned" by Cessna and I believe it's the exemption that Flight Safety typically uses.

The 4050 SPE is no longer in force (last reissue of it expired in 2012). The original issue of 4050 (in 1984) is the grand daddy of all future exemptions, see attached. Cessna's "new" exemption is 11045.

As for one vendor using another's exemption, the current exemptions are say something similar to this:

The approved training curriculum authorized by this exemption may not be conducted under any business name other than _____________.

So it doesn't work to have FSI use Cessna/Textron exemption.

Much of the commentary posted here is dated, seems to be from some years ago.

Quote:

There are several others and all of them have slight differences. Things like minimum pilot time, medical certificate requirements, types of approaches permitted, etc.

Starting in 2012, the FAA made exemptions uniform. There is no medical requirement any more, either, that language went away in 2012.

Mike C.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 03 May 2018, 09:57

But they all require a commerical license pic turbine.

I think you might need a second class medical initially. But don’t have to renew it. But here is he irony. You want to fly contract jobs to build time and experience ASAP. So get your medical and commercial and go get your 500 hours. Mike C has the hours but needs his commercial.

Otherwise just by a CJ or a 501SP and be done with it. SP out the gate.

If you just hire an SIC the first 500 hours you will spend $150k and deal with all people issues.

Btw for the new turbojet pilot....I recommend 150”s with an SIC. Through contract work I got that in the first year. Got paid for it and got my exemption year 2.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 03 May 2018, 10:34

Username Protected wrote:

But they all require a commerical license pic turbine.

Yes, but having a commercial license does not imply having 2nd class medical.

Quote:

I think you might need a second class medical initially.

They used to, said so right in the exemption.

That language was removed in 2012.

Quote:

You want to fly contract jobs to build time and experience ASAP.

Not really my favored strategy.

I want to get trained, get the right airplane, and fly it on MY missions. This will require hiring a mentor for some number of hours. But once past the mentoring, then I'm fully functional single pilot.

Quote:

Otherwise just by a CJ or a 501SP and be done with it. SP out the gate.

This comes with limitations on range.

Mike C.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 03 May 2018, 10:47

Mike:

This is testing you’re rather notable brain. As some point you just got to step up and take a shot. Currently you are approaching your first jet asymptotically. :rofl:

I started 3 years ago. Have 1000 pic turbojet. 600 SP in 500 series.

I just bought half a CJ2. I also have leases on two 550’s and a 560. Plenty of options.

You likely don’t have a lease option where you live.

I feel your pain. You are trying to buy your last jet first. Write the check for a CJ3. Otherwise take a first step and get a CJ or a 550. Buy it smart. Then move when you are ready.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 03 May 2018, 12:38

All,
I need a RT seat person in Citation next week. I’ve posted in the job talk. Take a look and see if it fits anybody.

Robert

Username Protected · **Posted:** 05 May 2018, 02:25

Username Protected wrote:

What is the range on a 501sp?

It's better than an Eclipse; that's for sure. We flew 3.5 hour legs and still had 1000+ lbs of fuel left. I would say it's 1100-1200 miles. I looked carefully at some Williams powered versions but I absolutely refuse to be married to their program. The range on these with the Branson fuel tank mod is 1,900 miles; that's pretty insane. I think the 551 is 1400-1500; is that about right?

Username Protected · **Posted:** 05 May 2018, 07:06

That was a Sierra mod, over $100k give or take.

Gary

Username Protected · **Posted:** 05 May 2018, 09:16

Username Protected wrote:

That was a Sierra mod, over $100k give or take.

Gary

I thiught installed it was closer to $300k

Username Protected · **Posted:** 05 May 2018, 09:30

That’s the give or take part

Gary

Username Protected · **Posted:** 05 May 2018, 09:42

Thanks, I thought it was also done without sierra wing mod , wasn't sure

I want to fly west to east approx. 1,125-1200 km pending atc vectors, some say yes no problems others say no not over 800 miles, don't know what to believe, any opinions supported by actuals would be appreciated flying 501 SP -1A mostly my wife, myself , luggage 11R IPNS MYEH
my foreflight the way i have it set up says 1,107 404 gals 40 knt tlwd 2.55 hrs
am i missing something , should land with 160 gals

When ever i flight plan Chyenne I it always seemed very accurate foreflight vs actual

Thank You All!

Username Protected · **Posted:** 05 May 2018, 09:53

I would land with 160gal as a reserve in a 550. Ultimately depends on your outs. One lesson I learned is don’t make your first trip of this length over water. What you need to do is really understand your fuel system accuracy (fms, gauges, totalizer ) at the edge of your envelope. Does 500lbs remaining really mean 500lbs remaining or does it mean 475 or 535? Learn that over land before you go out to sea.

Also for shits and giggles work through fuel preservation strategies. Climb higher trade off, drift down burn, shut one down and cross-feed. Does that actually work? Do all that contingency stuff in the easy chair or over airports. It’s hard to that when you are under the gun.

Citation 501sp