25 Apr 2024, 08:08 [ UTC - 5; DST ]
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Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp Posted: 16 Jun 2021, 20:17 |
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Joined: 12/03/14 Posts: 19252 Post Likes: +23622 Company: Ciholas, Inc Location: KEHR
Aircraft: C560V
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Username Protected wrote: I have been talking to the folks at Florida Jet Center for my initial. My insurance required sim initial, not in airplane. I did it at FSI Atlanta. Check your insurance underwriter for this as they are going towards requiring sim especially for owner flown types. Mike C.
_________________ Email mikec (at) ciholas.com
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Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp Posted: 16 Jun 2021, 21:10 |
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Joined: 12/03/14 Posts: 19252 Post Likes: +23622 Company: Ciholas, Inc Location: KEHR
Aircraft: C560V
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Username Protected wrote: I think the best would be a combo. Some sim but some in your aircraft. Insurance does this with sim type rating, mentoring in aircraft. Quote: I also think they make the sim training requirement way too long. I agree. I felt I could have done the CE-500 type course in almost half the days allotted. They allocate time based on the lowest performing student, apparently. Mike C.
_________________ Email mikec (at) ciholas.com
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Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp Posted: 16 Jun 2021, 22:37 |
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Joined: 09/12/20 Posts: 9 Post Likes: +1
Aircraft: CE-501
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Username Protected wrote: I got my initial in the plane. I would have had to have 25 hours before being able to fly as PIC anyway. I just did that in the plane. I agree, the sim courses were lengthy, scheduled at odd hours and I wouldn’t have had time in the plane. Went to sim recurrent later. My insurer approved it. Most initial places want to get you in and done quickly. I let them know that wasn’t my goal. The key is to ensure that you will not get an "SIC Required" restriction. Some DPEs are doing this across the board on initial type rating check rides even for those that take the ride single pilot. I suppose it's their way of limiting liability of someone jumping in a jet, single pilot after an accelerated in-the-plane initial. While I understand the logic, it's often not disclosed by the school or the DPE in advance as an outcome of the check ride...largely because it should not be an outcome per 8900.2. Moral of the story: Ask and do your diligence in advance of starting your training or taking an in-the-plane check ride.
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Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp Posted: 17 Jun 2021, 08:03 |
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Joined: 09/26/14 Posts: 54 Post Likes: +50
Aircraft: B767
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Although the initial program in the sim is long and exhausting, I truly think it would be in your best interest. The ground school/systems knowledge will provide you with the fundamentals that you need to know if operating a high altitude, high speed jet aircraft (especially if operating single pilot). Bleed air, oxygen, hypoxia, air cycle machines, anti/de-icing, weather, etc, just to name a few.
After systems, the sim portion of the program affords you repetition. Since you're a brand new MEL pilot, repetition is exactly what you need and it's much easier (and cheaper) to do that in a simulator vs the airplane. Flight handling/characteristics, profiles, approaches, V1 cuts, single engine approaches, crew concepts, checklist management, etc are going to have you drinking from a fire hose and having the ability to stop the sim, explain, reset, reposition and repeat are very helpful in the learning process.
I was in a similar situation as yourself (new MEL rating and relatively low time with about 500 hours in a Baron) many years ago and went to FSI in San Antonio for my initial. I can't speak highly enough of how valuable that training was in my career (9 type ratings later).
I'm not saying that doing the program in your own airplane or using another syllabus/training facility is a bad idea, but these initial programs (FSI, SimulFlite, etc) are designed for pilots just like you.
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Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp Posted: 17 Jun 2021, 10:13 |
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Joined: 11/06/20 Posts: 1313 Post Likes: +1298 Location: Tulsa, OK - KRVS
Aircraft: C501SP
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Username Protected wrote: I have been talking to the folks at Florida Jet Center for my initial. My insurance required sim initial, not in airplane. I did it at FSI Atlanta. Check your insurance underwriter for this as they are going towards requiring sim especially for owner flown types. Mike C. Thanks everyone for their feedback. I have been talking to the insurance folks and have what we believe to be a workable (though expensive) plan.
I feel strongly about learning to fly the actual airplane vs a sim. I agree that sims are outstanding for learning systems and emergency procedures, but IMO they don't teach you how to fly the plane. Plus I doubt the sim will have the same instruments as my (future) plane so there is even less utility there for learning how to fly. Also, I can do in-airplane at my home airport vs having to travel.
So my current thinking is to do my initial in the plane and then fly with my mentor for a while. My mentor pilot will be the primary on the insurance with me listed as an additional pilot (only flying w/ the mentor). 6 months or so in, I will go and do sim recurrent. By that point I will be comfortable w/ flying the plane, and I can practice those emergencies that can't be done safely in the plane.
My insurance person also recommended that I do upset recovery training at Jet Warbird training center in Santa Fe as well as a radar training course. The idea is to build a portfolio and to show the underwriter that you are taking this seriously, are investing in yourself, and that you want to become proficient.
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Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp Posted: 17 Jun 2021, 10:49 |
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Joined: 03/09/11 Posts: 1727 Post Likes: +787 Company: Wings Insurance Location: Eden Prairie, MN / Scottsdale, AZ
Aircraft: 2016 Cirrus SR22 G5
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Username Protected wrote: Thanks everyone for their feedback. I have been talking to the insurance folks and have what we believe to be a workable (though expensive) plan.
I feel strongly about learning to fly the actual airplane vs a sim. I agree that sims are outstanding for learning systems and emergency procedures, but IMO they don't teach you how to fly the plane. Plus I doubt the sim will have the same instruments as my (future) plane so there is even less utility there for learning how to fly. Also, I can do in-airplane at my home airport vs having to travel.
So my current thinking is to do my initial in the plane and then fly with my mentor for a while. My mentor pilot will be the primary on the insurance with me listed as an additional pilot (only flying w/ the mentor). 6 months or so in, I will go and do sim recurrent. By that point I will be comfortable w/ flying the plane, and I can practice those emergencies that can't be done safely in the plane.
My insurance person also recommended that I do upset recovery training at Jet Warbird training center in Santa Fe as well as a radar training course. The idea is to build a portfolio and to show the underwriter that you are taking this seriously, are investing in yourself, and that you want to become proficient. Hi Chris- What you outlined is a great plan (I'm not your broker but I can always endorse good logic I see from a competitor) and one I commend your broker for suggesting. The 'sim' portion the underwriting company usually just needs to be done prior to solo operations - so in most cases insurers are ok with in-aircraft initial followed by mentor period and then sim recurrent - but all prior to solo ops. It is frankly a workaround for other than full initial sim school and one we have deployed in cases where it made sense (you mentioned the panel in your bird not mirror'ing what the simulator outfit would have - great reason to train in airplane right there!). The upset stuff and radar is good 'filler' for your pilot profile and I agree that it will certainly make your risk stand out a bit when it is shopped next year. So bravo on the thought process here and best to you with the new airplane~ th
_________________ Tom Hauge Wings Insurance National Sales Director E-mail: thauge@wingsinsurance.com
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Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp Posted: 17 Jun 2021, 11:01 |
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Joined: 09/26/14 Posts: 54 Post Likes: +50
Aircraft: B767
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Username Protected wrote: I feel strongly about learning to fly the actual airplane vs a sim. I agree that sims are outstanding for learning systems and emergency procedures, but IMO they don't teach you how to fly the plane. Chris, that's exactly what they do, to the point where it becomes 2nd nature. Best of luck with training and wish you the best.
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Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp Posted: 17 Jun 2021, 11:09 |
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Joined: 01/17/21 Posts: 88 Post Likes: +42
Aircraft: C550
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Took my initial in the plane , 750 Garmin & 700 TXI display, because nobody had the panel in a sim. You talk about drinking from a fire hose somebody broke the dam. Very fortunate to have a local guy with thousands of hours in Citation II's ,he has shown me more than any of the initial or SP waiver training . Sim training without the same equipment would've been very beneficial .
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Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp Posted: 17 Jun 2021, 11:19 |
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Joined: 02/15/21 Posts: 2539 Post Likes: +1264
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Username Protected wrote: Thanks everyone for their feedback. I have been talking to the insurance folks and have what we believe to be a workable (though expensive) plan.
I feel strongly about learning to fly the actual airplane vs a sim. I agree that sims are outstanding for learning systems and emergency procedures, but IMO they don't teach you how to fly the plane. Plus I doubt the sim will have the same instruments as my (future) plane so there is even less utility there for learning how to fly. Also, I can do in-airplane at my home airport vs having to travel.
So my current thinking is to do my initial in the plane and then fly with my mentor for a while. My mentor pilot will be the primary on the insurance with me listed as an additional pilot (only flying w/ the mentor). 6 months or so in, I will go and do sim recurrent. By that point I will be comfortable w/ flying the plane, and I can practice those emergencies that can't be done safely in the plane.
My insurance person also recommended that I do upset recovery training at Jet Warbird training center in Santa Fe as well as a radar training course. The idea is to build a portfolio and to show the underwriter that you are taking this seriously, are investing in yourself, and that you want to become proficient. Chris, when you say the insurance is expensive, can you give us an idea just how expensive, and for what kind of coverage? What if you plan to fly only part of each year? Can you get insurance priced on a monthly basis? I thought they did upset training in the regular type rating program. What does the Jet Warbird training include? In what type of plane?
_________________ Aviate, Navigate, Communicate, Administrate, Litigate.
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Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp Posted: 17 Jun 2021, 12:38 |
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Joined: 11/06/20 Posts: 1313 Post Likes: +1298 Location: Tulsa, OK - KRVS
Aircraft: C501SP
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Username Protected wrote: Chris, when you say the insurance is expensive, can you give us an idea just how expensive, and for what kind of coverage? What if you plan to fly only part of each year? Can you get insurance priced on a monthly basis?
I thought they did upset training in the regular type rating program. What does the Jet Warbird training include? In what type of plane? Hi Ian, This has not gone before an underwriter, but the broker I am working with recently got somebody through with the above plan. The premium was ~$30k/year for $1MM liability, non-smooth ($100k/person IIRC) and $500k hull. So, insanely steep. I asked about not having the hull covered, but the broker recommended getting a full package quote and then look at breaking it apart. They further recommended not even putting it in front of an underwriter until I had all of the above steps completed so that is all the info I have at this point. The Jet Warbird training is done in an L-39. Details are here: https://www.jetwarbird.com/upset.htmlI love the shot w/ the styrofoam cups on the top of the canopy. Looks like they try to make it as real as possible - if you do end up inverted there is going to be crap flying all over the place.
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