Mike: are you type rated?
If this is crewed, the FO adjusts power many times.
Vref at 50 feet, throttles to idle. Pilot PF normally does that but FO can assist. If a lesson, especially early that may have been briefed.

Dave

No I not not type rated. I edited my last post to say I don’t know what I am talking about. Haha


I have never been flying a aircraft and someone else messing with power. I guess I see power directly related to flight controls.

Looking forward to learning how the jet world works.

Mike

Yes, I wasn’t trying to be negative, just observing things may be different for a reason. Takes some getting used to. Single pilot, you obviously have all controls. Crewed, it’s normal for the Left seater to advance power then take hands off and put them on the yoke.
Co-pilot adjusts throttles if power isn’t correct and guards them after rotation speed.
On arrival, left seat would normally have power control, but may have been briefed differently for a lesson. As has been said, prop guys aren’t used to power to idle at 50 feet at Vref.
A great number of the jet landing incidents are due to what I said above. The first thing I ask on a landing over run is we’re they at Vref at 50 feet.

Another thing you’ll find different is the landing. I a twin turbine, those props could be big brakes. The jet is clean. Cut throttles and place it on the runway rather that a long flare and touchdown at or near stall speed. The jet can easily float and eat up runway. You can’t start stopping until wheels are on the ground. On a short runway, you put it on the runway at a selected point (some call it a “working” landing).

I did the 10 day 525S sim school. I had buddies that did the FSI 21 day schools that only got them the 525 with a sic. It’s confusing. What I do know is it kicks your ass. I read Mike C saying he could do it in less days but if he got the 525S he is Superman. If he only got with it with training wheels not so much. There is a difference. Make sure and check at your school you pick.

Wow hold up. 10 day sim course? WTH??

If you can’t fly a plane in 3-5 days you should not be flying that plane. What the hell is so complicated about jets that it takes 10 days to learn to fly them? Or did that include a full Mechanics course so you can do your own phase inspections? LOL


Mike

It’s a 10 day school. 7 days are classroom about the plane and systems. All you get is is 5 or six sim sessions and one is the check ride. LOFT in San Diego. The plane is nothing to fly, and you get no time to just fly it in the sim. Every few minutes is a mayday. Mike, just talk like that after your Type rating. I hope you still have that energy. Good luck and I hope you win the most bad ass pilot award. I had never even seen an FMS and first sim I was supposed to be programming it for a full trip. Now do it with a V1 cut and a fire.
Easy. Oh and your flaps don’t work. Oh, and it’s below minimums and you need to go missed oh and now it’s a circle to land. Oh, and did you do the after takeoff checklist? And no waas coupled approaches all hand flown. And it’s full motion makes you queasy as hell and it’s so dark you can’t see any of the switches. Better know them from memory.

I guess there is a reason us private GA guys crash a lot more than the pros flying jets. LOL

I look forward to the challenge and learning. No super pilot here. Just some average guy flying my plane.


Mike

Then you are okay with your plane and engines being worth zero, disposable.

One of the lesser known policies of Williams is that if you do go off program ALL THE MONEY previously paid in is lost. You have to repay for all the hours to now again to get back on program.

This can also happen if you fail to pay your invoices for 3 months as well. Your program is canceled and to get back on requires repaying previous hours.


I'm not ignoring it at all.

In 5 years, I will have $250K saved, at least, not paying Williams for 750 hours of engine use. That will fix just about anything that is wrong with a JT15D. Pay into an investment account like you would be paying Williams and see how far ahead you can get.

Williams has a very high reputation for service, so the engine program is not that bad a deal. The main issue is the unilateral power they hold on everything in the contract. They can, and have, changed terms on renewals and there is nothing you can do about it.

For example, contracts used to have increases tied to inflation indexes. Not any more, they are free to raise the rates every year to whatever price they want. Their program customers are absolutely captured in a way that exceeds any other arrangement I can think of, literally the entire value of your airplane is leverage.


Yes, there is a donut range where the Eagle II wins. It just isn't very big at the end of the day. When headwinds are strong, it is even smaller due to the Eagle II lower speed.

For me, I had nothing in the donut, so the Stallion was faster to all my destinations. In the end, I simply couldn't commit to being a Williams slave and went for the V.


I never say my answer is right for all. All I ever do is say what my answer was and why it works for me.

Mike C.

Mike C

I am a fan. Not trying to hate on your deal.

We all have very different justification processes. In the end it’s all stupid. A jet for private air travel is stupid no matter how you justify it. It’s a crap ton of money to be fast and cool.

I would totally buy a V or any other of the larger jets if I had the jet experience. But where I am the Eagle II fits the bill. I will pay the program cost and enjoy it as much as I can. Just like I pay to race my Trophy truck spec. It’s even a worse idea than owning a Jet. I pay $25k for 500 miles. LOL put that in your spreadsheets.


Mike

Although the systems in a 501 are not super-complicated by jet standards, they are considerably more complicated than what you'd find in a typical piston prop. In fact, I'm studying the 501 systems now to get a head start as I'd hate to have to cram that all in the first few days of a type rating course and then be tested on all that in a sim or in the air. Or a real-life emergency, for that matter.

I recall seeing a video in which Joe Lara mentioned he spent 12 days at FSI getting his initial. Sobering to think how that turned out.

Besides the float on landing , taking your hands off the throttles & putting them on yoke on takeoff was another area hard to get used to coming from a turboprop.

13 days.

5 days ground school, 6 days sim, 1 day off, 1 day checkride.

We were in a class with 9 students CE-500 initial at FSI Atlanta. They said it was the largest initial class size they have ever had. Sim was scheduled from 0600 to 0000 every day, My sim buddy and I were 2000-0000, so I got 2 hours of PIC, 2 hours of SIC every sim day.

I felt like I could have done ground school and sim on the same days, and done more sim time each day.

Mike C.

Highlighted an interesting art of your post above
You’ve done homework on what off program does to the value of your plane?
I kind of understood it was all or nothing, that a Williams anything ooff program was near zero

A 501 is 100 times easier to fly than your 421.