24 Apr 2024, 07:09 [ UTC - 5; DST ]
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Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp Posted: 03 Sep 2018, 15:46 |
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Joined: 04/12/11 Posts: 6159 Post Likes: +2263 Location: Bedford, MA (KBED)
Aircraft: 1992 Bonanza A36
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Username Protected wrote: Well done guys... ...such am amazing aircraft for the age. Start my formal training Friday....excited and nervous!!! Prayers to the patient passenger and family!! Couldn’t say it better ! What a great story, what a great way to make new friends and glad to know Jim is itching for Jet-a too!
_________________ Best Regards,
Kevin McNamara
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Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp Posted: 03 Sep 2018, 17:28 |
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Joined: 01/29/09 Posts: 4697 Post Likes: +2404 Company: retired corporate mostly Location: Chico,California KCIC/CL56
Aircraft: 1956 Champion 7EC
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Quote: Start my formal training Friday....excited and nervous!!! Practice with a garden hose, it makes the transition to receiving information from a fire hose easier...! Where are you training?
_________________ Jeff
soloed in a land of Superhomers/1959 Cessna 150, retired with Proline 21/ CJ4.
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Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp Posted: 03 Sep 2018, 18:34 |
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Joined: 10/27/10 Posts: 10861 Post Likes: +6885 Location: Cambridge, MA (KLWM)
Aircraft: 1997 A36TN
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Username Protected wrote: Jim and I had a lot of fun. 10 hours of Citation flying last week! I was glad he could fly in the Lancair IV too. Me too. I had a lot of reservations initially (as you could probably tell), but it seemed a good, honest airplane when kept in the middle of the fairway as we did. That's definitely not an airplane for me, though. I'll stick to the big ones.
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Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp Posted: 03 Sep 2018, 21:10 |
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Joined: 12/03/14 Posts: 19252 Post Likes: +23622 Company: Ciholas, Inc Location: KEHR
Aircraft: C560V
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Username Protected wrote: Non-standard, self-defined maintenance schedule could be a tough sell. The Bacon program is non standard, and is filed for individually for each owner. Mike C.
_________________ Email mikec (at) ciholas.com
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Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp Posted: 03 Sep 2018, 21:17 |
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Joined: 12/03/14 Posts: 19252 Post Likes: +23622 Company: Ciholas, Inc Location: KEHR
Aircraft: C560V
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Username Protected wrote: All that to save $1250/year? Or are there other recurring fees? Over 10 years of ownership, the Bacon program is $26,000 when adding up initial and recurring fees. That seems sufficient to try a program that basically lengthens a few inspection intervals and otherwise keeps the Cessna program intact. I pay experts to do things I can't do, not to hide trivial secrets of how I could have done it myself. Mike C.
_________________ Email mikec (at) ciholas.com
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Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp Posted: 04 Sep 2018, 00:14 |
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Joined: 05/31/13 Posts: 1235 Post Likes: +602 Company: Docking Drawer Location: KCCR
Aircraft: C425
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Quote: I believe a motivated owner can do what Bacon does themselves. Take the existing inspection program, extend some intervals (notably phase 5 to 6 years), perform an incoming corrosion inspection, and submit that to the FSDO. It really shouldn't be that hard, nor require annual payments. I'm pretty motivated and I spent a ton of hours going back and forth with my FSDO to get a simple change made to the AIP on my Conquest. To say it was a frustrating exercise in futility would be a huge understatement. The FSDO people could not have been less interested in helping me out and in the end they came up with some regulation that prohibited what I wanted to do. Had I spoke to someone who actually gave a s**t in the first place, at least I would not have wasted countless hours and 9 months of work. I totally hear you and if you have time time and INFINITE patience you could probably do it yourself. But here's one thing I learned. You can't just take the existing AIP, make a few tweaks and submit it (that's what I tried to do). They wanted me to completely rewrite the AIP even though 99.99% would be unchanged and then bring it up to current standards which would have meant adding a bunch of other stuff that's not in the old AIP. Bacon has developed the magic combination of meaningless paper that makes FAA types happy, and there is some value in that. It sucks they are trying to turn it into a recurring revenue stream but they do have something with value. If you want to do it yourself I am sure it can be done but you will spend A LOT of time doing it.
_________________ ATP, CFI-I, MEI http://www.dockingdrawer.com
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Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp Posted: 04 Sep 2018, 05:03 |
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Joined: 12/24/07 Posts: 1242 Post Likes: +152 Location: Akron, Ohio
Aircraft: C550 - C560
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Username Protected wrote: All that to save $1250/year? Or are there other recurring fees? Over 10 years of ownership, the Bacon program is $26,000 when adding up initial and recurring fees. That seems sufficient to try a program that basically lengthens a few inspection intervals and otherwise keeps the Cessna program intact. Mike C.
Assuming you start with a fresh phase 1 thru 5 on the aircraft you’ll spend somewhere in the range of 165k in labor over ten years on Cessna’s program and under the Bacon program you’ll be about 55k in labor plus the cost of the program at 26k for the phase 1 - 5 for a total 81k, so a 50% cost savings after ten years was attractive to us as more of a longer term owners.
I might note that our Citation 550 has over 50 phase inspections so while the 1-5 are the major inspections they are not the only phase inspections.
One of the great benefits of the Bacon program that gets over looked is that it freezes the maintenance program the day it’s filed so if Cessna has a AD or SID that comes up in the future it would not apply to your aircraft under the Bacon program. That’s basically how Bacon started his business was with the SID for the Conquest.
Gary
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Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp Posted: 04 Sep 2018, 07:08 |
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Joined: 07/12/11 Posts: 1681 Post Likes: +378 Company: Victory 1 Performance Location: Mooresville,NC
Aircraft: C501SP
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Username Protected wrote: Quote: Start my formal training Friday....excited and nervous!!! Practice with a garden hose, it makes the transition to receiving information from a fire hose easier...! Where are you training? Hey Jeff, Training in Statesville with Doug C. from E.F.T.............. Say hello to Jeffery!!!
_________________ Smooth landings......... Conrad
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Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp Posted: 04 Sep 2018, 08:19 |
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Joined: 12/03/14 Posts: 19252 Post Likes: +23622 Company: Ciholas, Inc Location: KEHR
Aircraft: C560V
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Username Protected wrote: One of the great benefits of the Bacon program that gets over looked is that it freezes the maintenance program the day it’s filed so if Cessna has a AD or SID that comes up in the future it would not apply to your aircraft under the Bacon program. That's true of all inspection programs, even when you select the manufacturer's program. Once selected, you are not required to update it during your ownership. If Cessna/Textron updates the inspection program or adds SIDs, they do not apply to you. Thus Bacon has no special advantage here. However, ADs are always mandatory regardless of any inspection program. Mike C.
_________________ Email mikec (at) ciholas.com
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Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp Posted: 04 Sep 2018, 11:34 |
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Joined: 05/05/09 Posts: 4966 Post Likes: +4797
Aircraft: G44, C501, C55, R66
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Username Protected wrote: I am not an expert on maintenance programs but that's not my understanding as explained by our maintenance shop and by Bacon.
The way this has been explained to me was that if your on Cessna's program as an example and that program has changes or updates you are then obligated to follow that revised program, and if your on that program is not froze, such as with Bacon.
Cessna's program has updates every year and you are obligated to follow those updates if you are operating under the Cessna program.
I may be wrong but that has been the way I have always understood the Cessna maintenance program but I know you analyze to the living end on every scenario.
I don't have the time to analyze every possible scenario in maintenance, so we took what appeared to be a no brainer and elected to join Bacon's program.
Give Dick a call and run you ideas around with him he will give you much better idea on how his program works.
Gary I'm fairly positive Cessna got rid of the $30-40K 10,000 hour inspection. So, if this is true, it's a GOOD thing to be on the Cessna program and not on the Bacon program if it still has this expensive airframe inspection. Worth looking into as the Bacon may not be so bueno if it still has the 10K hour inspection.
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