18 Apr 2024, 03:43 [ UTC - 5; DST ]
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Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp Posted: 04 Aug 2021, 19:40 |
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Joined: 02/15/21 Posts: 2530 Post Likes: +1254
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Username Protected wrote: The PC-24 is certified under part 23 and uses 1.14 Vso for Vref
@14,000# F33 Vref is 93kts At 16,000 lbs, flaps 33, the PC-24's stick pusher fires at 78 KIAS. Adjusted for 14,000 lbs, that would be about 73 KIAS. 93/73=1.27. And 73 KIAS is above actual stall, of course.
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Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp Posted: 05 Aug 2021, 09:42 |
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Joined: 07/23/09 Posts: 1071 Post Likes: +564 Location: KSJT
Aircraft: PC-24 Citabria 7GCBC
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Username Protected wrote: The PC-24 is certified under part 23 and uses 1.14 Vso for Vref
@14,000# F33 Vref is 93kts At 16,000 lbs, flaps 33, the PC-24's stick pusher fires at 78 KIAS. Adjusted for 14,000 lbs, that would be about 73 KIAS. 93/73=1.27. And 73 KIAS is above actual stall, of course.
Ian, Splitting hairs here but I see 74 KIAS as the pusher activation speed 14,000#s. Pilatus likely calculated the 1.14 based on aerodynamic stall vs the "stick pusher stall" in the charts. Actually, Pilatus does not publish the 1.14 x Vso in the AFM. The 1.14x is in the Honeywell ACE Pilot Guide which per the AFM is required to be aboard the aircraft.
Quote: The dynamic speed bug is shown as a green arrowhead ( < ) adjacent to the speed tape and is calculated approximately as 1.14 * VSTALL. The dynamic speed bug may be used by the pilot to provide a safe approach speed in all configurations (all flap settings, ice mode 1 and 2, corrections for air brake extended, and steep approach configuration) without the need to calculate the correct speed according to the aircraft mass.
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Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp Posted: 07 Aug 2021, 23:39 |
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Joined: 11/08/13 Posts: 1930 Post Likes: +1195 Location: KCRQ
Aircraft: Breeezy, 182,601P
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I know its somewhere in this long thread... but I have several specific questions: Legacy Citation Overhaul is due at 3500 hrs (corecct?). How often is hot section due 1750 (correct?) Does part 91 have to overhaul at 3500? I find this: https://skyway-mro.com/flex-program-ove ... its-jt15d/Looks like 25K + cost of a hot section to get to 5250 hours. What is the price range low/high for a hot section? How much would it cost to buy a used engine with 1000 hrs remaining? How much to do an overhaul? How much to put a G600 and GTN750 into one of these with an old steam panel? Rough interval for phase 1..5 and costs? Annual cost? Liability only insurance for someone with 500 hrs of pressurized twin time but no jet time?
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Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp Posted: 08 Aug 2021, 08:13 |
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Joined: 05/05/09 Posts: 4958 Post Likes: +4796
Aircraft: G44, C501, C55, R66
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I PMed you but brief answers below Username Protected wrote: I know its somewhere in this long thread... but I have several specific questions: Legacy Citation Overhaul is due at 3500 hrs (corecct?). Right How often is hot section due 1750 (correct?) right (50 he grace) Does part 91 have to overhaul at 3500? NO I find this: https://skyway-mro.com/flex-program-ove ... its-jt15d/Looks like 25K + cost of a hot section to get to 5250 hours. NOT NEEDED PART 91. What is the price range low/high for a hot section? $10-120k, $55 average How much would it cost to buy a used engine with 1000 hrs remaining? $100-120k How much to do an overhaul? How much to put a G600 and GTN750 into one of these with an old steam panel? See my other thread, $265 all in. Rough interval for phase 1..5 and costs? 1-4 is $7500, phase 5 is $15 ish Annual cost? Not much more than an Aerostar Liability only insurance for someone with 500 hrs of pressurized twin time but no jet time? . Easy, $4-5k
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Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp Posted: 08 Aug 2021, 11:26 |
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Joined: 12/03/14 Posts: 19252 Post Likes: +23622 Company: Ciholas, Inc Location: KEHR
Aircraft: C560V
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Username Protected wrote: NOT NEEDED PART 91. Correct. Part 91 doesn't need this TBO extension STCs or programs, simply do the HSI and keep going. The STCs and other things exist for part 135 or other operators who aren't allowed to fly past TBO, or for part 91 operators who don't know the rules. Quote: What is the price range low/high for a hot section? $10-120k, $55 average Credibility of this answer would be greatly enhanced with pointers to shops that can meet those prices. They seem optimistic from my research. It doesn't take replacement of many HT blades to easily blow up an HSI budget. Quote: How much to put a G600 and GTN750 into one of these with an old steam panel? See my other thread, $265 all in. It varies with your choices and what you have to trade in. Mine was $234K. I didn't spend $4K extra to get gray bezels, for example, a way Garmin tries to tax higher end airplanes. I kind of like the black bezels anyway. Attachment: virb-view-1.png I didn't go for TCAS 7.1 which would blow up the budget a lot, but limits my international footprint quite a bit. This isn't an issue for a 501 due to the rules excusing it from TACS 7.1. I did have two GTX 3000 units which I sold to offset some of the costs, and got GTX 345/335 units in return. The market for the old removed stuff is collapsing as more airplanes do this upgrade, so the credit for the old stuff will be less as time goes by. Quote: Rough interval for phase 1..5 and costs? 1-4 is $7500, phase 5 is $15 ish Again, I find those optimistic based on my research. Pointers to a shop that can achieve those numbers would provide credibility. Some numbers for BASE prices: Phase 1-4: Sierra 2012 catalog prices: $9,978 Textron 2020 prices: $15,730 Phase 5: Sierra 2012 catalog prices: $23,749 Textron 2020 prices: $45,000 The Sierra prices are way old, so keep that in mind, I would multiply by 1.5 at least. The work often goes well above base prices. Quote: Annual cost? Not much more than an Aerostar If you put the airplane on a LUMP (low utilization maintenance program), and have a good condition airplane, and find one of the most economical shops around, and the Aerostar is a maintenance hog, maybe. My LUMP extends phase 1-4 to every 3 years, 450 hours (was 2/300) and phase 5 to every 6 years, 1200 hours (was 3/1200). That's a huge cost reducer. I fundamentally believe we over inspect our planes and cause more damage by doing so, thus I don't feel this is unwarranted. This means you are in for heavy maintenance only every 3 years. A prime driver in maintenance cost is owner involvement. You can save a ton by helping to precisely debug what is wrong and finding parts. Most jet owners are "here are the keys, call me when ready" and most jet shops are "replace the most expensive part to see if that fixes it, and buy it from Textron at full retail or even with a mark up". That combination leads to breathtaking expenses, and often the problem is not solved. Quote: Liability only insurance for someone with 500 hrs of pressurized twin time but no jet time? Easy, $4-5k $1M/$100K liability only can probably be had for that or even much less. My policy with W Brown was for $2M liability smooth which was $3,000 premium, $900K hull which was $14,850 premium. I would assume a liability only policy would have a higher premium than bundled. The 560 V has more seats, so a 501 will be somewhat less. Mike C.
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Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp Posted: 08 Aug 2021, 21:23 |
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Joined: 04/24/18 Posts: 727 Post Likes: +340 Location: NYC
Aircraft: ISP Eagle II SR22 g2
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Username Protected wrote: >To find best endurance in any aircraft just pull the power levers back to whatever speed you feel comfortable above stall.
No not true.... Once you are below minimum sink it takes more power to maintain flight. IE once you start getting really slow when practicing slow flight you need to add power to maintain altitude. (Also some theoretical differences here between prop and jet, having to to do with the fact that the prop imparts the energy to a larger "Disk" of air vs the jet putting all the energy into a smaller disk. so the relative velocity of the accelerated air is lower and power imparted/lost to the air goes up as Velocity ^2) If you need to add power to maintain altitude then you're no longer comfortably above stall...
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Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp Posted: 08 Aug 2021, 22:52 |
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Joined: 02/15/21 Posts: 2530 Post Likes: +1254
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Username Protected wrote: >To find best endurance in any aircraft just pull the power levers back to whatever speed you feel comfortable above stall.
No not true.... Once you are below minimum sink it takes more power to maintain flight. IE once you start getting really slow when practicing slow flight you need to add power to maintain altitude. (Also some theoretical differences here between prop and jet, having to to do with the fact that the prop imparts the energy to a larger "Disk" of air vs the jet putting all the energy into a smaller disk. so the relative velocity of the accelerated air is lower and power imparted/lost to the air goes up as Velocity ^2) If you need to add power to maintain altitude then you're no longer comfortably above stall... Israel, can you flight test it? Would be interested to know what your AOA reads when you are flaps & gear up at minimum fuel flow in level flight.
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Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp Posted: 09 Aug 2021, 09:23 |
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Joined: 04/24/18 Posts: 727 Post Likes: +340 Location: NYC
Aircraft: ISP Eagle II SR22 g2
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Username Protected wrote: >To find best endurance in any aircraft just pull the power levers back to whatever speed you feel comfortable above stall.
No not true.... Once you are below minimum sink it takes more power to maintain flight. IE once you start getting really slow when practicing slow flight you need to add power to maintain altitude. (Also some theoretical differences here between prop and jet, having to to do with the fact that the prop imparts the energy to a larger "Disk" of air vs the jet putting all the energy into a smaller disk. so the relative velocity of the accelerated air is lower and power imparted/lost to the air goes up as Velocity ^2) If you need to add power to maintain altitude then you're no longer comfortably above stall... Israel, can you flight test it? Would be interested to know what your AOA reads when you are flaps & gear up at minimum fuel flow in level flight.[/quote]
Does the altitude matter? I’m scheduled for a short repo flight tomorrow. Probably at 5-7k feet. I’ll report back the ff and aoa. But the ff is probably the variable as I won’t be comfortable beyond a .6 or so aoa.
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Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp Posted: 09 Aug 2021, 11:41 |
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Joined: 02/15/21 Posts: 2530 Post Likes: +1254
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Username Protected wrote: Does the altitude matter? I’m scheduled for a short repo flight tomorrow. Probably at 5-7k feet. I’ll report back the ff and aoa. But the ff is probably the variable as I won’t be comfortable beyond a .6 or so aoa.
In theory the altitude shouldn't matter. To properly test if lowest fuel flow happens at 0.6, it will be necessary to fly at more than 0.6 (say 0.65) to see if fuel flow increases. But of course don't do it if you think it's not safe. Also of course test at 0.55 to see if fuel flow increases compared to 0.6. However, I just want to confirm you have the standard AOA gauge that claims to show best L/D at a reading of 0.6?
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Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp Posted: 09 Aug 2021, 19:58 |
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Joined: 01/17/21 Posts: 88 Post Likes: +42
Aircraft: C550
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Got my CE500 rating in the plane no SIC required .
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