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28 Mar 2024, 11:34 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 13 Jul 2021, 19:12 
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Mike, that panel is gorgeous, however, it seems to violate your rule of always having a spinning hunk of metal for when the SHTF. What made you change your mind?

I tried. I really did.

The V has no air source, so I can't use an air driven gyro which would be my first choice as being inexpensive and being totally separate from the electrical system. Trying to add some sort of air source was just way too complex (and the easiest was an electrically driven pump, which makes no sense).

I can put in an electric gyro, but I'm still beholding to the electrical system to power it. If the electrical system works, then likely one of my three AI systems work (two PFDs, one GI 275).

I could try to find an electric AI with a built in battery, but that's yet another stupid battery to put on an inspection schedule and test. I got enough of those already. Plus this is very expensive.

I could have kept the "peanut" gyro, but the power supply for that is stupid expensive, the gyro is really small, and it is known to be somewhat unreliable.

My latest thinking is something like a Dynon D3. I've got some places I could put that on the panel. Still electronic, though. Also, seems to require GPS which is a problem for good reception on the panel and also flying in GPS denied areas. So haven't done it yet.

Further concerning me is that the GI-275 is wired to the other stuff, so that introduces electrical or software potential for coupled faults. Sigh.

I'm open to suggestions. I consider this an open issue yet to be resolved.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 13 Jul 2021, 19:16 
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Username Protected wrote:
I don't care much about LRC which is why I didn't post those numbers. It increases cost via plane time and traveler time.

Not if it saves a fuel stop.

Quote:
Something tells me you won't be at 450 often

About as often as you are at FL430.

Quote:
so a consistent 25% delta in fuel specific burn is nothing to sneeze at.

That's at a higher speed which saves airframe hours and is helpful in headwinds.

When slowed to the same speed, not nearly that large.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 13 Jul 2021, 19:30 
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Aircraft: C560V
Username Protected wrote:
I figured since the Garmin could feed heading and altitude info to the SPZ-500 that it could feed in VNAV. Ok, Altitude bug it is until the GFC600 is STCd.

Correct.

VNAV is manual, but you do get the blue "banana" on the GTN to judge descent rate to next VNAV point, so it isn't that hard.

G600 STC, when/if available, would change that.

The G600 would allow me to take out a surprisingly large number of things in my airplane:

FZ-500 flight director computer
SP-200 autopilot computer
GAD-42 roll steering converter box
GAD-43e autopilot attitude interface box
ADC-602 air data adapter
MS-205 flight director mode panel
PC-500 autopilot controller
AG-222 accelerometer
AC inverter #1
AC inverter #2
AC fail over relays
A bunch of misc relays, adapters, etc.

If I choose, I can get rid of the radar altimeter then, too:
Radar altimeter antenna
Radar altimeter box

The G700 has AGL readout (GPS derived) which kind of takes over from the RA. The inverters can come out because the only thing they drive now is the SPZ stuff, there are no other AC devices on the airplane.

Projected weight loss: about 100 lbs. I will end up even more tail heavy, alas, but I can deal with that. That is one reason I want to get the inverters and the RA out.

I'm trying to have the lightest V in existence.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 13 Jul 2021, 19:48 
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Username Protected wrote:
I'm open to suggestions. I consider this an open issue yet to be resolved.

Mike C.


Thanks for the reply. I have a feeling that if you were advising someone else you'd recommend a battery backed gyro.

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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 13 Jul 2021, 21:15 
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Here this should work for your gyro...


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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 13 Jul 2021, 21:18 
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On a more serious note, an electrically driven mechanical gyro with backup battery would be my choice.

No (or minimal) EMP/ESD/Lightning strike risk.
ZERO software /GPS risk.
A DC motor that is not electronically commutated is pretty robust to momentary electrical faults. (IE not brushless)


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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 13 Jul 2021, 21:21 
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Username Protected wrote:
A DC motor that is not electronically commutated is pretty robust to momentary electrical faults. (IE not brushless)

Brush wear and friction would be an issue, so I thought all electric AI were brushless and thus require electronic commutation.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 13 Jul 2021, 21:27 
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You may be correct...


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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 13 Jul 2021, 22:56 
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I'm surprised the V doesn't have a way to use bleed air to power an AI.

Mike, I think you have to bite the bullet and do something to have a working AI in the event of total electrical failure, even if it's not an ideal solution in your view. It's just too risky not to.

I suppose an iPad with gyro sensors is out of the question?

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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 13 Jul 2021, 23:01 
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Username Protected wrote:
I don't care much about LRC which is why I didn't post those numbers. It increases cost via plane time and traveler time.

Not if it saves a fuel stop.
Quote:
Now you sound like Tamarack...



Quote:
Something tells me you won't be at 450 often

About as often as you are at FL430.

Quote:
I'm at 430 every other leg over an hour. Still waiting on your report from 450.


Quote:
so a consistent 25% delta in fuel specific burn is nothing to sneeze at.

That's at a higher speed which saves airframe hours and is helpful in headwinds.

Quote:
True but still 25% less fuel for 6% less speed


When slowed to the same speed, not nearly that large.

Mike C.


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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 13 Jul 2021, 23:15 
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Joined: 05/29/13
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Company: Easy Ice, LLC
Location: Marquette, Michigan; Scottsdale, AZ, Telluride
Aircraft: C510,C185,C310,R66
Username Protected wrote:
I seriously doubt you can go from sim to PIC directly.


Chuckle… of course not Mike. Thought that was fairly obvious. I’d be picking up SIC work.

No, don’t need the type for SIC (although, as you said, often insurance drives that requirement and sometimes requires the SIC to have a type) but the rating lets me log PIC time.

No real plan to do this, just kicking it around as a possibility.

Robert


You need gainful employment sir. :roll:
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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 14 Jul 2021, 12:56 
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Username Protected wrote:
I'm surprised the V doesn't have a way to use bleed air to power an AI.

Mike, I think you have to bite the bullet and do something to have a working AI in the event of total electrical failure, even if it's not an ideal solution in your view. It's just too risky not to.

But isn't everyone going to solid state standby AIs with their own battery backup? That's what my plane has (L3 Trilogy ESI-2000). I believe every new Cirrus and I'm guessing every other new plane?

In the event of a total electrical failure you have a minimum of 1 hour of standby AI power. I like having a different manufacturer than my primary to avoid potential software issues. I really liked the Mid-Continent SAM that I had in the Cirrus.

Yes, it is one more battery to manage along w/ the main and ELT batteries.

My plane does still have a gyro pressure gauge in front of the copilot and it reads when the engines are turning but I don't think anything is hooked up to it.


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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 14 Jul 2021, 13:08 
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Username Protected wrote:
I'm surprised the V doesn't have a way to use bleed air to power an AI.

Mike, I think you have to bite the bullet and do something to have a working AI in the event of total electrical failure, even if it's not an ideal solution in your view. It's just too risky not to.

I suppose an iPad with gyro sensors is out of the question?


I THINK his GI275 has a battery backup and fits the bill.

The point of my comment/question was related to Mike's past posts indicating his preference for a spinninh gyro as an ultimate backup and this panel not having one. I respect Mike's opinions and logic. I was asking to understand what/if/how his opinions on this changed.

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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 14 Jul 2021, 13:31 
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Username Protected wrote:
I THINK his GI275 has a battery backup and fits the bill.

Yes, my GI 275 has the battery backup option and requires testing periodically to confirm it works.

Quote:
The point of my comment/question was related to Mike's past posts indicating his preference for a spinninh gyro as an ultimate backup and this panel not having one. I respect Mike's opinions and logic. I was asking to understand what/if/how his opinions on this changed.

My opinion didn't change, my options did. I pushed REALLY hard to get something on the panel with spinning metal that runs without electrical power. I just couldn't make that work. This may be something I can address with another shop in the future.

My strong preference is an air driven gyro which allows an inexpensive AI and completely different kind of power.

There is vacuum on the V, used for the pressurization system. It wasn't clear we could tap that for a gyro, and it wasn't clear that gyro would work when the plane is depressurized since a vacuum requires pressure headroom to work.

There is service air for things like boots and door seal. Not clear I could tap that, either, to drive a gyro with pressure instead of vacuum.

So it got complicated from a certification stand point.

As it stands now, I have two PFD/AHRS setups, each on a different primary bus which can be isolated if need be.

Also, the pilot PFD/AHRS is on an emergency bus (load sheds everything on the airplane except PFD #1, NAV #1).

Then I have a GI 275 with its own internal battery.

So the system is not without significant redundancy.

I am debating if I would want a tablet/portable GPS with its own battery and possibly an ADS-B weather receiver. I had that in my MU2, Aera 560, and that was a good backup for failure of the ship mounted systems. But that airplane had a single bus and no emergency bus option.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 14 Jul 2021, 13:53 
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Username Protected wrote:
In the event of a total electrical failure you have a minimum of 1 hour of standby AI power. I like having a different manufacturer than my primary to avoid potential software issues. I really liked the Mid-Continent SAM that I had in the Cirrus.


That's what I did in my TBM and for that very reason. The SAM has a long history of reliability, and even though I like the GI275 I really wanted something with a proven history.


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