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16 Jun 2021, 07:59 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 09 May 2021, 10:55 
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Location: KRVS
Aircraft: G6 SR22
Username Protected wrote:
How easy is it to do an aft bag potty with a privacy curtain and still put at least six seats in the passenger cabin (8 seats total including crew)?

It is easy, buy a plane already setup that way, such as a 550, 551, S550, or 560.

The spar runs under the read bench seat in a 501, so there's place to stick the toilet under you. The rear bench seat is also 3 passengers of capacity, so not easy to replace in the rest of the cabin.

If you want private facilities, and comfortably hold 8 people beyond that, you need a bigger cabin.

Mike C.

I have been staring at 501SP ads for several weeks now. They are not common but some number have a proper seat in place of the forward galley. This gives you 6 real passenger seats and retains the aft lav. Some of those aft lavs are belted which would give you 9 total seats.

This is the configuration I will look for. Though Tarver can chime in - it may be simple to remove the forward galley and install a seat. I don't know if there are structural requirements for that area for one config vs the other.

Here's one on controller with that config (though the interior itself is TIRED):
https://www.controller.com/listing/for- ... t-aircraft

Here are some pics from N113CA. I was really digging on this plane. It seems to have sold.
Looking forward:
Attachment:
img.axd-7.jpeg


Aft Lav retained:
Attachment:
img.axd-6.jpeg


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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 09 May 2021, 11:40 
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Aircraft: G44, R44, C501, A109
I can count on 1 hand how many times I've had to pee while flying. I definitely don't make airplane decisions on the bathroom. BUT, if I had my preference, my favorite arrangement is the side bench with a bucket under it. I do not prefer blue water Citation lavs and I really hate the flushing versions. The bucket is perfect to pee in and heaven forbid if someone had a code brown emergency, kitty litter or a bag inside would be easy. Even better are the ones with a pee tube under the pilot's seat.

If you've ever had to carry a blue water lav down the isle of a Citation with creamy leather seats and wool carpet, you'll understand why the bucket is the best.

Likewise, if you aren't comfortable peeing in front of the people in your airplane, I've decided that I have no desire to have those people riding in my airplane. The worst combination would be people that you don't know peeing in YOUR airplane; that's totally forbidden!


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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 09 May 2021, 11:46 
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Location: Cambridge, MA (KLWM)
Aircraft: 1997 A36TN
Username Protected wrote:
I can count on 1 hand how many times I've had to pee while flying.
The slower the airplane, the more times I've had to pee while flying it. The 182 was Gatorade bottle territory and I can't even tell you how many stops we made while Kris was pregnant, but some trips felt like we were on a one-airplane poker run.

I think the bathroom is 10x more psychological than practical, but that benefit is still real.


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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 09 May 2021, 12:04 
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Location: Marquette, Michigan; Scottsdale, AZ, Telluride
Aircraft: C510,C185,C310,R66
Username Protected wrote:
I can count on 1 hand how many times I've had to pee while flying.



Richie Sambora took a dump in a CE550 I was flying and Jesse J was in the right seat on his very first jet flight. I kid you not. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 09 May 2021, 12:08 
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Aircraft: G44, R44, C501, A109
Username Protected wrote:
I can count on 1 hand how many times I've had to pee while flying.



Richie Sambora took a dump in a CE550 I was flying and Jesse J was in the right seat on his very first jet flight. I kid you not. :lol:


WAHAHAHA!! I spit my coffee out laughing.

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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 09 May 2021, 12:11 
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Joined: 12/02/13
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Location: Salt Lake City KSLC
Aircraft: C414, C501SP
I have 8 seats in my 501 and the standard non-flushing toilet in the back. There is a lot of room in the aft baggage/toilet area, in fact I also have a small child seat cushion in the baggage so technically I have 9 seats. I have the two barrel seats up front with no refreshment center. Personally I find the refreshment center hugely wasteful. I always just take a soft sided cooler with our food and drinks and it sits where ever it's convenient and gets passed around to whomever needs something. I don't really understand why the barrel seats are designed they way they are, they have a lot of unnecessary side/back cushion that makes the seat actually smaller and they really aren't comfortable enough for an adult on a long flight. James Crossno is selling his 501 and it is listed on Beechtalk:
viewtopic.php?f=43&t=194277
His plane has two proper seats instead the barrel seats up front. I would love to convert my barrel seats to proper seats to make them more useful. If anybody knows if or how that is possible please let me know. The 501 has the most versatile cabin of all the single pilot Cessna jets in my opinion. I would have to move up to a CJ2 to get only slightly more space, at a cost of over $2M. The 501 is by far the best deal in a SP jet or SP pressurized plane period. Once you have taken off and landed one from the left seat you will never want to go back to something with propellers.


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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 09 May 2021, 12:34 
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Aircraft: G44, R44, C501, A109
Username Protected wrote:
I have 8 seats in my 501 and the standard non-flushing toilet in the back. There is a lot of room in the aft baggage/toilet area, in fact I also have a small child seat cushion in the baggage so technically I have 9 seats. I have the two barrel seats up front with no refreshment center. Personally I find the refreshment center hugely wasteful. I always just take a soft sided cooler with our food and drinks and it sits where ever it's convenient and gets passed around to whomever needs something. I don't really understand why the barrel seats are designed they way they are, they have a lot of unnecessary side/back cushion that makes the seat actually smaller and they really aren't comfortable enough for an adult on a long flight. James Crossno is selling his 501 and it is listed on Beechtalk:
viewtopic.php?f=43&t=194277
His plane has two proper seats instead the barrel seats up front. I would love to convert my barrel seats to proper seats to make them more useful. If anybody knows if or how that is possible please let me know. The 501 has the most versatile cabin of all the single pilot Cessna jets in my opinion. I would have to move up to a CJ2 to get only slightly more space, at a cost of over $2M. The 501 is by far the best deal in a SP jet or SP pressurized plane period. Once you have taken off and landed one from the left seat you will never want to go back to something with propellers.


I looked at converting my two barrel seats to proper seats. I'm also in total agreement that the galley is a waste of space. Here's the issue. The barrel seats have 4 holes that bolt onto brackets. The regular seats require seat rails. I've seen the seat rail installed on a 501 in the front right position (it was an option apparently) but I've never seen it installed on the front left position. These seat rails are riveted to the floor structure so it would be insanely expensive (like DERs and such) to install the rails. There's no way to bolt a regular seat down sadly to those brackets either. So, basically, you are stuck with the barrel seats.

I have the Avcon rear and side divans so I actually have 10 seats in my bird. I am converting it to an aft club also which is going to be like a limo back there.


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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 09 May 2021, 13:19 
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I wonder if the barrel seat was designed that way so that a flight attendant can easily face either the galley or the passengers.

This is said to be a 501. Appears to have a seat where the galley used to be:


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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 09 May 2021, 14:09 
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Location: Salt Lake City KSLC
Aircraft: C414, C501SP
Mike-
thanks for that information. I guess what I could do someday is reupholster the barrel seats and remove some of the unnecessary foam that sits between the sidewall and the seat cushion and make it formed more like a regular seat. I just don't have the need for that many seats on long flights and my leather seats are all in good condition so I don't have the need to redo the interior. I did take 7 passengers on a scenic Grand Canyon flight recently so the barrel seats did come in handy.
You mentioned long range cruise in another post and I have attached a Sierra Industries newsletter that outlines their recommendations for LR cruise starting at page 6. It outlines the climb to an efficient altitude and then using angle of attack to achieve the best L/D ratio until you have burned off enough fuel to climb to a higher more efficient altitude. The key is getting up high and burning a very low amount of fuel to make the miles and feeling comfortable staying up at the altitude until you don't have a lot of reserve. The problem I see is that controllers often start bringing you down way earlier than is necessary so your reserve can get quickly burned off down low.
One last thing, I have dual GTN750's with the remote audio panel and TXP which is very nice. I have thought about adding a G600 but I would like to wait until the GFC600 autopilot is STC'd for the 501. Do you or anyone else on the forum know if there is a plan for either Columbia or Jettech has plans to do this? I have to believe it will happen someday, but it would be cool to know it happens in my lifetime.


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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 09 May 2021, 14:40 
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Location: Salt Lake City KSLC
Aircraft: C414, C501SP
Ian-
I think you are right about the design of the barrel seat, especially since it would be located right across from the refreshment center. I have attached a photo of dual barrel seats in a 501 (not my plane but mine are similar) and I would guess that about 10% of the 501 fleet has this set up. I would also guess that based upon what Mike Tarver has said that the 4 bolts that hold down the barrel seat are already located on the LH side and hold down the refreshment center, so that if you could locate a LH side barrel seat in a bone yard or hangar you could convert any 501 into a dual barrel seat set up. Maybe Tarver can confirm this? I have also attached a photo of a barrel seat that has been modified to function more like a regular cabin seat.
Mike Boyer


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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 09 May 2021, 14:57 
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Username Protected wrote:
Mike-
thanks for that information. I guess what I could do someday is reupholster the barrel seats and remove some of the unnecessary foam that sits between the sidewall and the seat cushion and make it formed more like a regular seat. I just don't have the need for that many seats on long flights and my leather seats are all in good condition so I don't have the need to redo the interior. I did take 7 passengers on a scenic Grand Canyon flight recently so the barrel seats did come in handy.
You mentioned long range cruise in another post and I have attached a Sierra Industries newsletter that outlines their recommendations for LR cruise starting at page 6. It outlines the climb to an efficient altitude and then using angle of attack to achieve the best L/D ratio until you have burned off enough fuel to climb to a higher more efficient altitude. The key is getting up high and burning a very low amount of fuel to make the miles and feeling comfortable staying up at the altitude until you don't have a lot of reserve. The problem I see is that controllers often start bringing you down way earlier than is necessary so your reserve can get quickly burned off down low.
One last thing, I have dual GTN750's with the remote audio panel and TXP which is very nice. I have thought about adding a G600 but I would like to wait until the GFC600 autopilot is STC'd for the 501. Do you or anyone else on the forum know if there is a plan for either Columbia or Jettech has plans to do this? I have to believe it will happen someday, but it would be cool to know it happens in my lifetime.

Hi Michael,

Thanks for sharing that newsletter, but I believe there is an error when it states that "Once the AOA reaches .35 (which is the aircraft’s best L/D or lift to drag ratio)..."

In the stock 500/501, an AOA indication of 0.35 represents best velocity to drag ratio and therefore best range in still air. Best L/D is represented by an AOA indication of 0.6.

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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 09 May 2021, 15:34 
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I’ve got plenty of barrel seats (yes, you can mount one where the galley is). I also have 2 full swivel ultra seats, an extra avcon side and aft divan too. I really like the barrel with the extra bench .

Here’s a weird one too. 1 aft real seat and 1 barrel.


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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 09 May 2021, 15:52 
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Username Protected wrote:
How easy is it to do an aft bag potty with a privacy curtain and still put at least six seats in the passenger cabin (8 seats total including crew)?

It is easy, buy a plane already setup that way, such as a 550, 551, S550, or 560.

The spar runs under the read bench seat in a 501, so there's place to stick the toilet under you. The rear bench seat is also 3 passengers of capacity, so not easy to replace in the rest of the cabin.

If you want private facilities, and comfortably hold 8 people beyond that, you need a bigger cabin.

Mike C.

I won't be able to qualify for SPE for quite a while and a 551 doesn't have the payload of a 501, so limited to 501 for now. My family is 7 total, but with safety pilot that makes 8. The aft lav is unfortunately fairly critical as one of my daughters has ulcerative colitis and while it's usually in remission, if it's not, appropriate facilities are a must.
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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 09 May 2021, 16:00 
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Location: Salt Lake City KSLC
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Ian-
I have attached some screenshots of the Citation AOA system. It supports your statement. Also notice the graph- to gain a 10% increase in range you give up 20% of your speed.


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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 09 May 2021, 16:37 
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Username Protected wrote:

I have the Avcon rear and side divans so I actually have 10 seats in my bird. I am converting it to an aft club also which is going to be like a limo back there.

I was going to suggest you should request a "Limo" callsign, but looks like there are some hep kats already using it for their own Citation.

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