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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 14 Aug 2018, 21:22 
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I sure hope it works out for him. I think if one looks at just the number of man hours required to perform the inspections at an hourly rate, it will exceed the above estimate. Then, one has to add the cost to fix what the inspection finds. Then, there's normal wear and tear replacements. Then, there's other things that are old that have to be fixed. Then.......



Buddy you real estate guys are good at making numbers seem plausible and if you’re in doubt, that must be some really fuzzy accounting going on. :D

Gary


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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 14 Aug 2018, 21:40 
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Tesla math? ;-)

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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 14 Aug 2018, 21:44 
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Pass that Kool aide brother. :cheers:

Gary


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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 14 Aug 2018, 21:52 
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If one can afford it and wants to go that way, these are great planes. I’d just hate to see someone that is price sensitive go in too optimistically. Sometimes these things go well, but when they don’t they can get expensive fast. We had an electrical problem that took 185 hours of labor to find last year. Then, we had parts to fix it. I don’t wish that on anyone, but we talked to several good folks running this down and many had a story to share about an unanticipated problem that was costly.
That was on top of normal phase inspections. That resulted in quite a bit of down time on the plane.

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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 14 Aug 2018, 22:14 
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Believe me, I'd really like to have one of these 501SP's. I mean crap, for 500 grand and 15 grand/yr in maintenance I can buy the cream of the crop, fly at FL410, and tell everyone "yeah, we took the jet"? Sounds awesome. But, here's what scares me....... Ive spent a fair amount of time on the CJ Pilots assn forums. After researching and reading, calling, and discussing, it seems that at least $1000/hr for up to 200 hrs per year is common. I emphasize "at least". And that is no engine program. And the "surprise" maintenance event can really put a damper on your enthusiasm. Both in terms of cost, but in downtime as well. It's the unknown that has selling prices where they are. And after owning several airplanes over the last 25 years, my gut tells me that the unpleasant is more the norm.
Fla


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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 14 Aug 2018, 23:54 
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I’ve owned and operated my Mustang for 3.5 years and have developed a pretty good feel for the costs and processes involved in maintaining a jet. Although the Mustang is sort of on the opposite end from a legacy jet, you get a feel for what goes on, nevertheless. I don’t doubt that you can successfully operate a legacy jet on the cheap. However, you need to start with a good airplane that’s in good condition. That puts the odds in your favor. There’s a bunch of shops that work on older Citations, and many parts can be reasonably acquired. As long as nothing major pops up, you can milk a legacy jet for quite a while. The risk is if something major pops up, it can bite hard. When you don’t have an engine program or parts program to lean on, all you have is your own pocket. In the end, your risk is your initial investment. When it’s not a large acquisition price, parts and engine programs don’t make sense. If you blow an engine, you’re either going to look for a used engine or part the plane out. So, as long as you don’t pay too much to buy one, your risk is controlled and well defined.

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Last edited on 15 Aug 2018, 13:55, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 15 Aug 2018, 08:33 
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I’ve owned and operated my Mustang for 3.5 years and have developed a pretty good feel for the costs and processes involved in maintaining a jet. Although the Mustang is sort of on the opposite end from a legacy jet, you get a feel for what goes on, nevertheless. I don’t doubt that you can successfully operate a legacy jet on the cheap. However, you need to start with a good airplane that’s in good condition. That puts the odds in your favor. There’s a bunch of shops that work on older Citations, and many parts can be reasonably acquired. As long as nothing major pops up, you can milk a legacy jet for quite a while. The risk is if something major pops up, it can bite hard. When you don’t have an engine program or parts program to lean on, all you have is your own pocket. In the end, your risk is your initial investment. When it’s not a large acquisition price, parts and engine programs don’t make sense. If you blow an engine, you’re either going to look for a used engine or part the plane out. So, as long as you don’t pay to much to buy one, your risk is controlled and well defined.


Well said, perhaps this point has been lost somewhere in this thread. Buy a solid, well loved airframe for approximately the cost of the motors and your non-insured financial risk in the event of a disaster is mitigated. As I said before, used motors trade for about a $100 an hour remaining. There really are no disasters that are lurking in these airframes so I believe a motor grenading is the highest (albeit low chance) financial risk. Avionics are dirt cheap and when I say dirt cheap; I mean practically free. Some of the single avionics failures in my friend's Eclipse and Premier would likely fund the avionics fund for 5 legacy Citations for life.

As I said, this is a hobby but in 8 months of ownership, it has been the most reliable, least aggravating and most fun airplane I've had. It's absolutely hassle free at this time; something I've never been able to say for any piston I've owned. In that time frame, I've probably had the Lancair cowling off 5 times doing little annoying things to the motor, messing with mags, changing oil, plugs, chasing oil leaks, etc. The TSIO-550 is far and away more expensive and time consuming to take care of than a 700 hour remaining JT15. I have absolutely zero expectation of my 350 hour Continental making 1000 hours before needing cylinders ($20K?) or making metal ($80k).

Even the Searey 914 has required way more maintenance than the Citation in this time frame. I've replaced multiple brackets, broken turbo bolts, ignition modules and just ordered 2 new carbs for its 5 year carb replacement/OH on the 914 ($3K if you take it to the dealer). These light sport motors are just as expensive if not more than a Continental! It's probably more expensive to maintain a 115HP 914 than a JT15. Seaplanes in general are a ton of work maintain.


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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 15 Aug 2018, 09:21 
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It seems to me from reading this thread, the 501SP is a good hobby plane (like Mike says). What my interpretation of hobby plane is most likely aligns with most BTers. You put the effort into tracking parts down, figuring out MX puzzles, etc... The opposite of this could be corporate planes where they just take them to the service center.

When I had my R182 I was heavily involved in MX and finding ways to keep costs down. Isn't that what all of us do to our "hobby" planes?

If I am understanding Mike correctly, you buy a good bird for the price of the motors.

Pretty neato!


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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 15 Aug 2018, 09:42 
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Username Protected wrote:
It seems to me from reading this thread, the 501SP is a good hobby plane (like Mike says). What my interpretation of hobby plane is most likely aligns with most BTers. You put the effort into tracking parts down, figuring out MX puzzles, etc... The opposite of this could be corporate planes where they just take them to the service center.

When I had my R182 I was heavily involved in MX and finding ways to keep costs down. Isn't that what all of us do to our "hobby" planes?

If I am understanding Mike correctly, you buy a good bird for the price of the motors.

Pretty neato!


Aren't 99% of the airplanes on BT mostly hobby airplanes? I'm not really sure why this is any different because it has jet engines. With that said, you probably would be A OK with one of these for serious business travel.


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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 15 Aug 2018, 09:48 
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Aren't 99% of the airplanes on BT mostly hobby airplanes? I'm not really sure why this is any different because it has jet engines. With that said, you probably would be A OK with one of these for serious business travel.

I completely agree with this point. People get way too hung up on 1 engine vs 2, turbine vs piston, fabric vs aluminum, whatever. They are all just airplanes.


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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 15 Aug 2018, 09:58 
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I completely agree with this point. People get way too hung up on 1 engine vs 2, turbine vs piston, fabric vs aluminum, whatever. They are all just airplanes.

I agree, after about 100 hours in any of them, an airplane is an airplane. The little ones don’t go as far as the big ones and seem to come back home sooner. The little ones are more fun to fly but it is nice, on a long trip, to be able to walk back to the restroom.


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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 15 Aug 2018, 11:32 
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Username Protected wrote:
Aren't 99% of the airplanes on BT mostly hobby airplanes? I'm not really sure why this is any different because it has jet engines. With that said, you probably would be A OK with one of these for serious business travel.

I completely agree with this point. People get way too hung up on 1 engine vs 2, turbine vs piston, fabric vs aluminum, whatever. They are all just airplanes.


Yes, a Citation or even a G-650 needs no more justification than a Piper Cub you use to look at dead cows on Sundays. They are all just airplanes and you get what you want because it makes you happy and you can afford it. When it no longer makes you happy or becomes too much of a PITA to support, then you get rid of it. That's something I haven't been able to understand as a reoccurring them in this thread, you don't have to be able to justify whatever you choose to spend your money on to anyone other than yourself and possibly your spouse.

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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 15 Aug 2018, 11:35 
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Tesla math? ;-)


:coffee:


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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 15 Aug 2018, 13:59 
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Username Protected wrote:
They are all just airplanes and you get what you want because it makes you happy and you can afford it. When it no longer makes you happy or becomes too much of a PITA to support, then you get rid of it. That's something I haven't been able to understand as a reoccurring theme in this thread, you don't have to be able to justify whatever you choose to spend your money on to anyone other than yourself and possibly your spouse.

Thus, the good old statement, "I spend most of my money on airplanes. The rest I just waste."

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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
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Username Protected wrote:
Aren't 99% of the airplanes on BT mostly hobby airplanes? I'm not really sure why this is any different because it has jet engines. With that said, you probably would be A OK with one of these for serious business travel.


Obviously you have not gotten or read the memo stating all jets are serious business machines that no one has a right to own or fly for pleasure. That same memo states all SE pistons are not for corporate use.

Also, whoever came up with the quote "I spend most of my money on airplanes, the rest I just waste..." is pretty damn funny! :D


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