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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 17 Aug 2021, 11:23 
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Out of curiosity: could that aircraft be fully updated with all the modern Garmin stuff, but have that done by an avionics shop in Europe and pay a fee for the STC?

And since I’m asking an STC question: can the glareshield mod still be done? It really makes the panel look a lot cleaner imho.


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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 17 Aug 2021, 13:58 
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Username Protected wrote:
Out of curiosity: could that aircraft be fully updated with all the modern Garmin stuff, but have that done by an avionics shop in Europe and pay a fee for the STC?

And since I’m asking an STC question: can the glareshield mod still be done? It really makes the panel look a lot cleaner imho.


Yes, you can buy the Jet Tech STC


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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 17 Aug 2021, 14:00 
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Username Protected wrote:
Out of curiosity: could that aircraft be fully updated with all the modern Garmin stuff, but have that done by an avionics shop in Europe and pay a fee for the STC?

And since I’m asking an STC question: can the glareshield mod still be done? It really makes the panel look a lot cleaner imho.


Yes, you can buy the Jet Tech STC


Do you know what they get for the stc by itself?

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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 17 Aug 2021, 18:18 
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Heads Up: There's a very nice 501SP for sale in France, just 20 minutes from my base, ask is $180K

Engines are run out.

Value proposition would be to buy it cheap and do hots only, fly past TBO, as a part 91 operator.

Mike C.


Is it a requirement that you do hots? Even part 91?
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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 17 Aug 2021, 18:38 
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Username Protected wrote:

Is it a requirement that you do hots? Even part 91?


Yes, since it's an inspection.

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Problem is the intelligent people are full of doubt, while the stupid ones are full of confidence.


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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 17 Aug 2021, 18:42 
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Aircraft: G44, C501, C55, R66
[/quote] Is it a requirement that you do hots? Even part 91?[/quote]

It's definitely required part 91. Also you can't exceed life limited parts. Every hot I've ever done on 1As....it really needed a hot! If it makes anyone feel any better, NetJets did 11,000 hr overhauls on Ultra JT15Ds. 1,500 mini hot section and 3,000 deeper hot sections (whatever that means!). Of all the JT15s I've owned, I've never had a cold section failure. I think this is a pretty wise plan in operating these motors. My II has two at TBO 7,000 hour motors and the hots are fresh.

I don't think the world will ever see another 1A of -4 overhaul. Even the 5As in the 560 are getting on the hot and carry on plan.

Mike


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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 09 Sep 2021, 23:12 
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Username Protected wrote:
Is it a requirement that you do hots? Even part 91?[/quote]

It's definitely required part 91. Also you can't exceed life limited parts. Every hot I've ever done on 1As....it really needed a hot! If it makes anyone feel any better, NetJets did 11,000 hr overhauls on Ultra JT15Ds. 1,500 mini hot section and 3,000 deeper hot sections (whatever that means!). Of all the JT15s I've owned, I've never had a cold section failure. I think this is a pretty wise plan in operating these motors. My II has two at TBO 7,000 hour motors and the hots are fresh.

I don't think the world will ever see another 1A of -4 overhaul. Even the 5As in the 560 are getting on the hot and carry on plan.

Mike[/quote]

I just finished this thread and I want to thank you, Mike C. and everyone else for the excellent education and real world insight into the ownership and operation of these legacy jets. Since you have bought and sold several of these by now I’m curious if you think there is currently a sweet spot in the market? It seems like buying the 150-200k timed out 501 and then doing a HS for 70k a side would be the way to go?

On your pre buys how much information are you realistically able get from the borescope? Is it enough to say “ok these engines will be able to have a standard HS” or is it still a total gamble? I really don’t like the idea of constantly buying and selling planes or the engines so I would love to be able to keep the same aircraft and engines for 20 years and just do a HS every 1,750hrs. How realistic is that? Thanks again!


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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 10 Sep 2021, 06:25 
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I've been focused lately on airframe condition lately. But yes, I think the hot and go plan is the only plan. I haven't seen any entries in logbooks that support anyone has overhauled a 1A since the mid-2000s so you're going to see more and more hot section only aircraft. The same is true for the Citation II motor. There's no shame in this strategy anymore and the stigma is going away too. But yes, a good boroscope will accurately predict your hot section cost.


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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 10 Sep 2021, 16:05 
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I find myself in a different court than Michael on this thread, but there's a place I'm very supportive. It's the hot section inspection. This isn't small stuff and there's a lot of room to maneuver on the part of large service centers and shops where that's their profit center. We got hots done on our C90 for under $20,000 a side. There are many stories of shops that called during the inspection and started ringing up the cash register. We used a long time Pratt expert that runs his own business now. He can supervise a hot, or be an owner's advocate if one goes to a large shop. Worked very well for us and we declined some add-ons that would have cost much more. There are ways to safely economize at times, rather than just turning it over to someone and crossing one's fingers.

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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 17 Sep 2021, 13:01 
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My insurance person also recommended that I do upset recovery training at Jet Warbird training center in Santa Fe as well as a radar training course. The idea is to build a portfolio and to show the underwriter that you are taking this seriously, are investing in yourself, and that you want to become proficient.

Hi Chris, any more thoughts on upset training?

I was looking at the differences between VNE/VMO dive recovery in particular as it differs between props and jets.

Jets build up speed quickly, don't have props to add drag, but do have speed brakes.

So if you find yourself in a high speed dive in a jet and need to recover, I'm thinking power to idle, if flaps are retracted do not extend flaps (they would add drag Edit: but you can't extend them above VFE and they also lower the plane's g-limits), consider dropping the gear, and extend speed brakes.

Now speed brakes are new for me (well, not totally, had them in the glider), so here's what I'm wondering. In a high speed dive, you want to slow down at least to VA so you can use maximum elevator control (and a lower speed also means a smaller dive recovery path radius). However, speed brakes kill lift, and you need lift to pull out of the dive.

So what does one do in this scenario with the speed brakes? Extend until down to VA (meanwhile pulling back on the yoke only enough to reach max positive g limits), then at VA retract the brakes and use max up elevator until close to stall (per the AOA gauge or stick shaker if equipped), then once nose is above horizon add power?

Short version: when and how do you use speed brakes to recover from a high speed dive in a jet?

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Last edited on 17 Sep 2021, 14:09, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 17 Sep 2021, 13:40 
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any more thoughts on upset training

I went to APS in Mesa, AZ last year and plan to do recurrent again next month. APS trains several major airlines, the army, and a bunch of corporate operators. Highly recommend if you're looking for a UPRT provider.

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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 17 Sep 2021, 13:42 
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Joined: 11/06/20
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Location: Tulsa, OK - KRVS
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Username Protected wrote:
My insurance person also recommended that I do upset recovery training at Jet Warbird training center in Santa Fe as well as a radar training course. The idea is to build a portfolio and to show the underwriter that you are taking this seriously, are investing in yourself, and that you want to become proficient.

Hi Chris, any more thoughts on upset training?

I was looking at the differences between VNE/VMO dive recovery in particular as it differs between props and jets.

Jets build up speed quickly, don't have props to add drag, but do have speed brakes.

So if you find yourself in a high speed dive in a jet and need to recover, I'm thinking power to idle, if flaps are retracted do not extend flaps (they would add drag but lower VA), consider dropping the gear, and extend speed brakes.

Now speed brakes are new for me (well, not totally, had them in the glider), so here's what I'm wondering. In a high speed dive, you want to slow down at least to VA so you can use maximum elevator control (and a lower speed also means a smaller dive recovery path radius). However, speed brakes kill lift, and you need lift to pull out of the dive.

So what does one do in this scenario with the speed brakes? Extend until down to VA (meanwhile pulling back on the yoke only enough to reach max positive g limits), then at VA retract the brakes and use max up elevator until close to stall (per the AOA gauge or stick shaker if equipped), then once nose is above horizon add power?

Short version: when and how do you use speed brakes to recover from a high speed dive in a jet?

Hi Ian,

I have not taken the upset training course yet. Nor have I passed my type rating (next month). But here are my thoughts - the veterans here please correct me if I'm wrong.

Throttle to idle and speedbrakes out. The gear speed is quite low (176) so you are pretty much guaranteed to be beyond that. Gently pull back on the yoke up to maximum g limits until nose up. I don't see the need to increase to max elevator once you are slowed to Va. Once you are at Va the emergency is over. Retrace the SBs, add power and continue on.

Obviously, if you are close to the ground with terrain around then sure, get it slowed down to Va, retract the boards, add climb power, and pitch for max climb speed.

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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 17 Sep 2021, 13:44 
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Hi everyone,

By any chance do any of you have the CE-500 study guide from airplanedriver.net that was linked early in this thread? I forgot to save a copy and now the site is inaccessible.

Thank you!


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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 17 Sep 2021, 17:14 
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I’d throw the gear out at 400kts and blow the gear doors off as needed if I ever found myself in a Tarzan situation.


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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 17 Sep 2021, 17:30 
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Username Protected wrote:
Hi everyone,

By any chance do any of you have the CE-500 study guide from airplanedriver.net that was linked early in this thread? I forgot to save a copy and now the site is inaccessible.

Chris try https://web.archive.org/web/20210309174 ... tguide.htm

If the link doesn't work go to https://archive.org/web/ and search for www.airplanedriver.net/study/citguide.htm. The most recent saved copy of the site has the page. If that doesn't work drop me a message with your email and I'll send it over.

Many thanks though to everyone who has contributed to knowledge on the 500 series in the thread, it's been a eye opener to get real ownership experience.


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