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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 17 Jun 2021, 14:40 
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I wonder how well upset training in an L-39 translates to flying a 501. I've heard good things about Arizona Type Ratings. Not sure if this is a sim or a real plane, but looks like a fairly unusual attitude:

https://youtu.be/VHenRtxYzPs&t=3m30s


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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 17 Jun 2021, 14:47 
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Joined: 11/06/20
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Location: Tulsa, OK - KRVS
Aircraft: C501SP
Username Protected wrote:
I wonder how well upset training in an L-39 translates to flying a 501. I've heard good things about Arizona Type Ratings. Not sure if this is a sim or a real plane, but looks like a fairly unusual attitude:

https://youtu.be/VHenRtxYzPs&t=3m30s

Per the website, they limit the control surfaces/responsiveness to emulate the aircraft you are intending to fly. If anyone has been there and has a pirep I would love to hear it.

As for your picture, I am pretty sure that is in a sim. I cannot imagine anyone rolling an actual Citation like that for training purposes.


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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 17 Jun 2021, 17:34 
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Joined: 11/19/15
Posts: 1400
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Company: Centurion LV and Eleusis
Location: Draper UT KPVU-KVNY
Aircraft: N45AF 501sp Eagle II
I have in contract a 501SP Eagle II. Sold my 421 and really looking forward to the process of getting to be a jet pilot.

While I was researching this aircraft model again I went back thru this entire thread. Half way thru the thread I see myself from 2018 commenting on how great an Eagle II looks for me and my missions. But I was just not ready as a pilot. I did not have my MEL or any jet time. Since that post in 2018 I bought the 421 and got 400 hours in her. I know I am still a rookie at 1500TT and only 350 multi but I feel much more prepared than I was back in 2018. Great that the 2021 version of me is able to do what the 2018 version wanted to do back then. LOL

It's cool to see this thread come full circle for me. Lots of hours researching and considering what I want to do compared to what I should do.

Thanks to Michael T for not only starting this thread but helping me find the perfect 501SP for me.

Mike


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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 17 Jun 2021, 18:00 
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Location: Tulsa, OK - KRVS
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Excellent Mike! I hope to be joining you soon. I love the idea of an FJ44 501 but I don't think I will fly enough to satisfy the Williams Mafia.


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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 17 Jun 2021, 18:37 
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Joined: 11/19/15
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Company: Centurion LV and Eleusis
Location: Draper UT KPVU-KVNY
Aircraft: N45AF 501sp Eagle II
Chris

I know we all calculate and justify in different ways. But I think the program is a benefit. I already pay a lot in engine maintenance and annual inspections on a twin piston. If one goes I am out $100k. With Williams I have insurance that if there is a major failure I am covered. So I look at it as a annual maintenance cost. Not a hourly cost. It’s just costing me $45k a year for engine maintenance and warranty. It’s a lot of money but way easier to stomach than a major failure or a plane that is ran out and worth nothing. It’s actually comforting to not worry about engine cost.

Mike

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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 18 Jun 2021, 03:09 
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Joined: 04/24/18
Posts: 727
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Location: NYC
Aircraft: ISP Eagle II SR22 g2
Username Protected wrote:
I think the best would be a combo. Some sim but some in your aircraft.

Insurance does this with sim type rating, mentoring in aircraft.

Quote:
I also think they make the sim training requirement way too long.

I agree.

I felt I could have done the CE-500 type course in almost half the days allotted. They allocate time based on the lowest performing student, apparently.

Mike C.


How many days did you spend?

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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 18 Jun 2021, 03:40 
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Joined: 04/24/18
Posts: 727
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Location: NYC
Aircraft: ISP Eagle II SR22 g2
Username Protected wrote:
I have in contract a 501SP Eagle II. Sold my 421 and really looking forward to the process of getting to be a jet pilot.

While I was researching this aircraft model again I went back thru this entire thread. Half way thru the thread I see myself from 2018 commenting on how great an Eagle II looks for me and my missions. But I was just not ready as a pilot. I did not have my MEL or any jet time. Since that post in 2018 I bought the 421 and got 400 hours in her. I know I am still a rookie at 1500TT and only 350 multi but I feel much more prepared than I was back in 2018. Great that the 2021 version of me is able to do what the 2018 version wanted to do back then. LOL

It's cool to see this thread come full circle for me. Lots of hours researching and considering what I want to do compared to what I should do.

Thanks to Michael T for not only starting this thread but helping me find the perfect 501SP for me.

Mike


Congrats! These planes are a blast. Awesome utility!


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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 18 Jun 2021, 03:55 
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Joined: 02/15/21
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Username Protected wrote:
I wonder how well upset training in an L-39 translates to flying a 501. I've heard good things about Arizona Type Ratings. Not sure if this is a sim or a real plane, but looks like a fairly unusual attitude:

https://youtu.be/VHenRtxYzPs&t=3m30s

Per the website, they limit the control surfaces/responsiveness to emulate the aircraft you are intending to fly. If anyone has been there and has a pirep I would love to hear it.

As for your picture, I am pretty sure that is in a sim. I cannot imagine anyone rolling an actual Citation like that for training purposes.

Chris, I'm not so sure it's a sim. Can a sim mimic the slip/skid ball the way it's moving in the video on the pilot's ADI while he is swerving a bit on the takeoff roll? Is this a full-motion sim? Also, look at the way the reflections change on the glass of some of the instruments.
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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 18 Jun 2021, 08:20 
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Joined: 12/25/12
Posts: 3711
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Location: KRHV San Jose, CA
Aircraft: A36, R44, C525
Username Protected wrote:
I have in contract a 501SP Eagle II. Sold my 421 and really looking forward to the process of getting to be a jet pilot.

While I was researching this aircraft model again I went back thru this entire thread. Half way thru the thread I see myself from 2018 commenting on how great an Eagle II looks for me and my missions. But I was just not ready as a pilot. I did not have my MEL or any jet time. Since that post in 2018 I bought the 421 and got 400 hours in her. I know I am still a rookie at 1500TT and only 350 multi but I feel much more prepared than I was back in 2018. Great that the 2021 version of me is able to do what the 2018 version wanted to do back then. LOL

It's cool to see this thread come full circle for me. Lots of hours researching and considering what I want to do compared to what I should do.

Thanks to Michael T for not only starting this thread but helping me find the perfect 501SP for me.

Mike


Wow you sold your 421 pretty fast. I have to get mine on the market to sell. Now with the CJ I am never using it. Not enough time.

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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 18 Jun 2021, 08:31 
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Joined: 12/03/14
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Company: Ciholas, Inc
Location: KEHR
Aircraft: C560V
Username Protected wrote:
How many days did you spend?

13 days.

5 days ground school, 6 days sim, 1 day off, 1 day checkride.

We were in a class with 9 students CE-500 initial at FSI Atlanta. They said it was the largest initial class size they have ever had. Sim was scheduled from 0600 to 0000 every day, My sim buddy and I were 2000-0000, so I got 2 hours of PIC, 2 hours of SIC every sim day.

I felt like I could have done ground school and sim on the same days, and done more sim time each day.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 18 Jun 2021, 15:57 
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Joined: 09/12/20
Posts: 9
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Aircraft: CE-501
Username Protected wrote:
Chris

I know we all calculate and justify in different ways. But I think the program is a benefit. I already pay a lot in engine maintenance and annual inspections on a twin piston. If one goes I am out $100k. With Williams I have insurance that if there is a major failure I am covered. So I look at it as a annual maintenance cost. Not a hourly cost. It’s just costing me $45k a year for engine maintenance and warranty. It’s a lot of money but way easier to stomach than a major failure or a plane that is ran out and worth nothing. It’s actually comforting to not worry about engine cost.

Mike


That's exactly what they want you to think! The problem is that they amortize the cost of a very expensive overhaul across the hours until TBO. Alternatively, you could fly a slightly more thirsty, and slightly slower JT15D plane and buy a used engine for 100-120/hour remaining on the engine. That's about the same or less than TAP Blue and puts the time value of money in your favor.

It's this dynamic that makes the legacy Citations a bit of an arbitrage.


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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 18 Jun 2021, 16:14 
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Joined: 02/15/21
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Username Protected wrote:
Chris

I know we all calculate and justify in different ways. But I think the program is a benefit. I already pay a lot in engine maintenance and annual inspections on a twin piston. If one goes I am out $100k. With Williams I have insurance that if there is a major failure I am covered. So I look at it as a annual maintenance cost. Not a hourly cost. It’s just costing me $45k a year for engine maintenance and warranty. It’s a lot of money but way easier to stomach than a major failure or a plane that is ran out and worth nothing. It’s actually comforting to not worry about engine cost.

Mike


That's exactly what they want you to think! The problem is that they amortize the cost of a very expensive overhaul across the hours until TBO. Alternatively, you could fly a slightly more thirsty, and slightly slower JT15D plane and buy a used engine for 100-120/hour remaining on the engine. That's about the same or less than TAP Blue and puts the time value of money in your favor.

It's this dynamic that makes the legacy Citations a bit of an arbitrage.

Yeah, but who wouldn't want the extra performance of those FJ44's if you could afford it...
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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 18 Jun 2021, 16:24 
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Joined: 09/12/20
Posts: 9
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Aircraft: CE-501
Username Protected wrote:

Yeah, but who wouldn't want the extra performance of those FJ44's if you could afford it...
[/quote]

For sure, would love a CJ4+ if money was no issue!


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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 18 Jun 2021, 16:32 
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Joined: 04/27/10
Posts: 1849
Post Likes: +823
Location: KFFZ & KGRR
Aircraft: BE36, CE501
Username Protected wrote:
I wonder how well upset training in an L-39 translates to flying a 501. I've heard good things about Arizona Type Ratings. Not sure if this is a sim or a real plane, but looks like a fairly unusual attitude:

https://youtu.be/VHenRtxYzPs&t=3m30s

Per the website, they limit the control surfaces/responsiveness to emulate the aircraft you are intending to fly. If anyone has been there and has a pirep I would love to hear it.

As for your picture, I am pretty sure that is in a sim. I cannot imagine anyone rolling an actual Citation like that for training purposes.

That’s not a sim.
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 Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp
PostPosted: 18 Jun 2021, 18:28 
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Joined: 11/19/15
Posts: 1400
Post Likes: +1203
Company: Centurion LV and Eleusis
Location: Draper UT KPVU-KVNY
Aircraft: N45AF 501sp Eagle II
I got all excited about a 550 until I realized I needed 500 jet ours to get SP. so not possible for me.

So the Eagle II is the best performance jet I can get. It has the range and efficiency of the Citation II but I can fly it.

So for me it’s the best option. And the performance is amazing with FL430 and getting there none stop. Really amazing performance for the price.

So it’s not a matter of if I like program or not. I like the payload and range of the Eagle II. Just so happens I also like the idea of engine insurance and warranty. Anything worth getting cost something.

There is always a cheaper option and a more expensive one. At this price point it is right in my sweet spot.

Mike

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