18 Apr 2024, 07:14 [ UTC - 5; DST ]
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Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp Posted: 20 Apr 2021, 18:41 |
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Joined: 03/04/13 Posts: 2586 Post Likes: +1244 Location: Little Rock, Ar
Aircraft: A36 C560 C551 C550S
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Val, I’m not the authority on this. Maybe Mike C, Mike Tarver, or Mark the Iceman will chime in. But, it’s my understanding that the 501SP and the 551 Citation IISP) were certified under different rules than the 500, 550 etc. They are what is referred to as single pilot from the factory. Only a 500 type rating and blessings from your insurance co and you can fly them SP. The others, which includes 500, 550, 560 all require an exemption to fly single pilot.
Robert T
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Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp Posted: 20 Apr 2021, 18:45 |
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Joined: 12/03/14 Posts: 19252 Post Likes: +23622 Company: Ciholas, Inc Location: KEHR
Aircraft: C560V
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Username Protected wrote: 1) Purely recreational plane. No purchase or operating budget given, so we are free to propose anything! Quote: 2) Probably 80 or so hours per year, though may go up w/ a more capable aircraft It will. I would expect 125 hours/year because you can go more places, faster, farther. Quote: 3) Flights between 500 and 800 nm with 8 people - 4 adults and 4 kids. Kids are small now but will grow. 8 people comfortably is a major down select in options. Quote: 4) A couple times per year we will go out to NorCal to visit friends ~1,300nm Non stop would be another down select, but with a stop, no issue. Quote: I like the safety factor of a jet. Agreed. Very safe. Quote: fewer things to break in the jet (NTS/autofeather, gearboxes, etc). Well, yes and no. Plenty of subsystems and other stuff that can fail. Quote: I am not worried about the type rating/training requirement as I would do a detailed initial, fly with a mentor for a while (a long while if I go MU-2), and do annual recurrent training no matter what aircraft I buy. I did two initials in the MU2 (one was "let me try this out", the other was when I had bought one a year later), and I trained every 6 months generally. That was probably overkill. Quote: I actually like doing training as it makes my brain work in a different way than my day job and, while stressful, it is invigorating to me. I agree and I enjoy training as well. Quote: So, would a 501SP work for this? Barely. Kind of tight. I suggest you would be better off with a 551 (IISP), especially if you are okay with fuel stops. Also, think about when you have a mentor pilot with you, you need a 9th seat. Quote: As for me, I am currently SEL Instrument. Doing my MEL in early June. I realize that jets are quite a bit faster and could be a handful in the terminal area. But most of my flights today are to uncontrolled fields, outside of Bravos (though I do have a brother-in-law near IAH), so I feel that I would be able to come up to speed (no pun intended) away from the hustle and bustle. There is no "small town" type rating in a jet. Quote: I appreciate the thoughts of the BT brain trust. Two paths to choose from: 1. Buy a turboprop 441, long body MU2, King Air 200, PC-12. Learn to fly it and do the missions, then upgrade to a jet in about 500-800 hours. At 500 hours, you may qualify for single pilot exemption (SPE) which opens up other choices. 2. Get a jet, hire a pilot Go get your type rating at a sim school like Simcom, Flightsafety, etc. Buy a jet. Hire a pilot (can be per day), they are insured in the aircraft. Fly SIC with them and get about 200-250 hours. Then see if you can be insured in the jet. Personally, if you can tolerate it financially, I'd go for #2. In 200 hours of using the plane, the contract pilot may cost you $70-100K and will be annoying for schedule and other reasons, but once past that, you are at your goal the fastest way possible. I suspect your pilot history is not compatible with a SPE, not enough total or turbine time. If it was, then the 2 pilot legacy Citations open up (550, S550, 560) which would be a very good fit for you for hauling around your Brady Bunch. Mike C.
_________________ Email mikec (at) ciholas.com
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Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp Posted: 20 Apr 2021, 18:55 |
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Joined: 02/15/21 Posts: 2530 Post Likes: +1254
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Username Protected wrote: The Sierra aft bench airplanes like mine have 10 belted real seats. I think you are a candidate. Don't they take out the rear lav with that mod and put a potty under one of the side seats like in the Mustang? How does it work privacy-wise? Is there some type of curtain that can be deployed while in flight, or is it strictly for emergency use mostly on the ground?
_________________ Aviate, Navigate, Communicate, Administrate, Litigate.
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Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp Posted: 20 Apr 2021, 18:57 |
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Joined: 12/03/14 Posts: 19252 Post Likes: +23622 Company: Ciholas, Inc Location: KEHR
Aircraft: C560V
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Username Protected wrote: I have a hard time understanding type ratings. You are not alone. I'm not even sure I fully understand it sometimes when it comes to the single pilot part 23 Citations. Quote: I thought for a 501sp you would need a 500 type rating and then a single pilot exemption. My understand was that you would need: (i have no idea though) 501SP and 551SP can be flown with a CE-500 type rating, no single pilot exemption (SPE) required. I think you do have to train as a single pilot or your CE-500 type rating will come with a "SIC required" clause (little fuzzy on this part...). The two pilot legacy Citations such as 500, 550, S550, and 560 are under part 25 and were certified requiring two pilots. Cessna managed to convince the FAA that those airplanes could be flown single pilot and got a single pilot exemption which has now grown to include many training providers and create its own little cottage industry. To boil it down: You have to meet certain requirements (commercial or better, 1000 total time, 500 turbine PIC or SIC, 50 hours night, 75 instrument, 40 actual instrument). Plane has to be equipped with gear lever on left side, boom microphone, ident on yoke, functional autopilot. You have to pass an SPE recurrent every year. Can only be part 91 operations. (Many sites will say there is a 2nd class or better medical required, that hasn't been true since 2012). The net impact is that your yearly recurrent costs about $3K more and takes 1 extra day to maintain an SPE over a simple recurrent. These prices are typical sim schools (Simcom, Flightsafety, etc). I wish the SPE stuff could all be converted to a CE-500S single pilot type rating and get rid of all this nonsense. But that's the FAA for you, and the training providers like the extra revenue, so they aren't trying to change anything, either. There's fundamentally nothing special about flying a 550 versus a 551, so this is all regulatory friction and not a real safety issue. Mike C.
_________________ Email mikec (at) ciholas.com
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Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp Posted: 20 Apr 2021, 19:22 |
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Joined: 11/06/20 Posts: 1298 Post Likes: +1290 Location: Tulsa, OK - KRVS
Aircraft: C501SP
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Username Protected wrote: 2. Get a jet, hire a pilot
Go get your type rating at a sim school like Simcom, Flightsafety, etc.
Buy a jet. Hire a pilot (can be per day), they are insured in the aircraft. Fly SIC with them and get about 200-250 hours. Then see if you can be insured in the jet.
Personally, if you can tolerate it financially, I'd go for #2. In 200 hours of using the plane, the contract pilot may cost you $70-100K and will be annoying for schedule and other reasons, but once past that, you are at your goal the fastest way possible.
I suspect your pilot history is not compatible with a SPE, not enough total or turbine time. If it was, then the 2 pilot legacy Citations open up (550, S550, 560) which would be a very good fit for you for hauling around your Brady Bunch.
Mike C. Yes, I don't qualify for SPE, so it's 501SP or 551SP for me. Your #2 is a lot like having a mentor pilot, but by sitting right seat I sidestep the insurance restriction as I gain PIC hours. Interesting idea.
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Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp Posted: 20 Apr 2021, 19:57 |
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Joined: 05/05/09 Posts: 4958 Post Likes: +4796
Aircraft: G44, C501, C55, R66
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Username Protected wrote: The Sierra aft bench airplanes like mine have 10 belted real seats. I think you are a candidate. Don't they take out the rear lav with that mod and put a potty under one of the side seats like in the Mustang? How does it work privacy-wise? Is there some type of curtain that can be deployed while in flight, or is it strictly for emergency use mostly on the ground?
Zero privacy. Hope your family is comfortable turning their heads if you must pee.
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Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp Posted: 20 Apr 2021, 21:42 |
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Joined: 03/09/11 Posts: 1727 Post Likes: +787 Company: Wings Insurance Location: Eden Prairie, MN / Scottsdale, AZ
Aircraft: 2016 Cirrus SR22 G5
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Username Protected wrote: Buy a jet. Hire a pilot (can be per day), they are insured in the aircraft. Fly SIC with them and get about 200-250 hours. Then see if you can be insured in the jet.
And when you have a hard landing as SIC and the insurance adjuster asks who was at the controls at the time of loss - do you think the insurer is going to cover that claim with an unapproved SIC on the policy (pilot that does not meet the open pilot clause nor is an approved SIC on the policy)? No chance....
_________________ Tom Hauge Wings Insurance National Sales Director E-mail: thauge@wingsinsurance.com
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Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp Posted: 20 Apr 2021, 22:03 |
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Joined: 10/04/19 Posts: 653 Post Likes: +400 Company: Capella Partners Location: Alpine Airpark, 46U
Aircraft: P35, TW Pacer
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Username Protected wrote: Buy a jet. Hire a pilot (can be per day), they are insured in the aircraft. Fly SIC with them and get about 200-250 hours. Then see if you can be insured in the jet.
And when you have a hard landing as SIC and the insurance adjuster asks who was at the controls at the time of loss - do you think the insurer is going to cover that claim with an unapproved SIC on the policy (pilot that does not meet the open pilot clause nor is an approved SIC on the policy)? No chance....
The pilot is an MEI. Chris is an AMEL receiving dual given. Am I missing something?
-J
_________________ PPL AMEL @jacksonholepilot on instagram firstlast@gmail.com
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Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp Posted: 20 Apr 2021, 22:44 |
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Joined: 03/09/11 Posts: 1727 Post Likes: +787 Company: Wings Insurance Location: Eden Prairie, MN / Scottsdale, AZ
Aircraft: 2016 Cirrus SR22 G5
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Username Protected wrote: The pilot is an MEI. Chris is an AMEL receiving dual given. Am I missing something?
-J
Yes you are missing a lot and forgetting or not knowing that the FAR's and insurance are two completely separate streets. What the FAA permits is one thing and what insurance will permit is another. Any pilot manipulating the controls of an aircraft either has to meet the open pilot clause or be a named pilot on the policy in order for coverages to not be compromised if said pilot is at the controls at the time of a loss - think hard landing, loss of control/runway excursion etc. The only way this will be ok with insurance is if the SIC is known to insurance and approved to function as an SIC or dual crew with the PIC. You can't fly under the nose of the insurance carrier and expect you'll have coverages when the SIC needs them (in this case).
_________________ Tom Hauge Wings Insurance National Sales Director E-mail: thauge@wingsinsurance.com
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Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp Posted: 20 Apr 2021, 22:46 |
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Joined: 03/09/11 Posts: 1727 Post Likes: +787 Company: Wings Insurance Location: Eden Prairie, MN / Scottsdale, AZ
Aircraft: 2016 Cirrus SR22 G5
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Username Protected wrote: The owner can probably get approved as an SIC with 0 jet time if he gets his type rating first, which is what I stated in the plan, so this is really a moot point. Having a veteran as PIC is really all they are looking for. Indeed, I'm flying a Citation V starting with 0 jet time and I am approved, even as PIC, as long as I have my approved mentor pilot along.
Mike C. yes as you are known to the insurance carrier and they approved you to do so - point I was making is that you can't simply fly as an SIC and log time unless known to the insurance carrier even with a well qualified and insured PIC (this if you expect to not compromise the policy coverages if the SIC is flying at the time of loss).
_________________ Tom Hauge Wings Insurance National Sales Director E-mail: thauge@wingsinsurance.com
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Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp Posted: 20 Apr 2021, 22:52 |
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Joined: 12/03/14 Posts: 19252 Post Likes: +23622 Company: Ciholas, Inc Location: KEHR
Aircraft: C560V
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Username Protected wrote: Your #2 is a lot like having a mentor pilot, but by sitting right seat I sidestep the insurance restriction as I gain PIC hours. Interesting idea. I don't even think you have to sit right seat for that to work. I would categorically state the first year you will ALWAYS fly with a second approved pilot, and find a few who are high time and experienced to name on the insurance. When you get to renewal, you may have to do that some more the second year, but you will also have been through a 61.58 recurrent as well. You may have to do that one more year. But keep doing it and you will reach your goal faster than spending time in a turboprop. To reiterate, the ideal sequence is: Get your type rating at sim school. Need to demonstrate you have what it takes to be a jet pilot. Don't even talk to the insurance until you are multi, instrument, typed. Get your jet. Insure it with high time pilots, you approved as SIC. Go fly. I think this would work. It will be annoying to always have to work around the contract pilot schedules, but this is how you get to your goals. In that first year, I'd create flights on purpose to places for training, and I'd make training days where you fly around, shoot approaches, practice stuff. That sort of flying is expensive (eats fuel), but has high value for proficiency. Be warned, if your family is used to a Cirrus and they take one flight in the jet, there is really no way to go back. Mike C.
_________________ Email mikec (at) ciholas.com
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Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp Posted: 21 Apr 2021, 02:59 |
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Joined: 02/15/21 Posts: 2530 Post Likes: +1254
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Username Protected wrote: I wish the SPE stuff could all be converted to a CE-500S single pilot type rating and get rid of all this nonsense. But that's the FAA for you, and the training providers like the extra revenue, so they aren't trying to change anything, either. There's fundamentally nothing special about flying a 550 versus a 551, so this is all regulatory friction and not a real safety issue.
Mike C. That would be ideal. Would open up a lot of options. But although Cessna for the most part seems to do a great job supporting the legacy Citations and undoubtedly was a major force pushing for the SPE program, I don't see them lobbying too hard for a broad CE-500 single pilot type rating as this might cut into sales of their newer Citations.
_________________ Aviate, Navigate, Communicate, Administrate, Litigate.
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Post subject: Re: Citation 501sp Posted: 21 Apr 2021, 07:48 |
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Joined: 04/24/18 Posts: 727 Post Likes: +340 Location: NYC
Aircraft: ISP Eagle II SR22 g2
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Username Protected wrote: I wish the SPE stuff could all be converted to a CE-500S single pilot type rating and get rid of all this nonsense. But that's the FAA for you, and the training providers like the extra revenue, so they aren't trying to change anything, either. There's fundamentally nothing special about flying a 550 versus a 551, so this is all regulatory friction and not a real safety issue.
Mike C. That would be ideal. Would open up a lot of options. But although Cessna for the most part seems to do a great job supporting the legacy Citations and undoubtedly was a major force pushing for the SPE program, I don't see them lobbying too hard for a broad CE-500 single pilot type rating as this might cut into sales of their newer Citations.
I highly doubt there's anyone cross shopping a 1.2m ultra with a 9m cj4...
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