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 Post subject: Re: TBM 700 and 700A
PostPosted: 20 Nov 2017, 23:06 
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Will Daher let their service centers sign off an annual inspection for a TBM that is past TBO?


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 Post subject: Re: TBM 700 and 700A
PostPosted: 21 Nov 2017, 00:36 
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Username Protected wrote:
Not true anymore. FAA clarified this a couple of years ago. Twins and singles are treated the same under Part 91 rules now.
News to me, got a link? Here's mine, the current Part 91.409 says, in pertinent part, that the requirement to adhere to abide by inspections and life-limited parts applies to "(e)... turbopropeller-powered multiengine airplanes..."
FAA.gov link here: https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?S ... 9&rgn=div8
and easier to read at https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/91.409


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 Post subject: Re: TBM 700 and 700A
PostPosted: 21 Nov 2017, 11:44 
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Username Protected wrote:
Not true anymore. FAA clarified this a couple of years ago. Twins and singles are treated the same under Part 91 rules now.


source? Looks like even the HSI is not mandatory.

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 Post subject: Re: TBM 700 and 700A
PostPosted: 22 Nov 2017, 09:03 
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I dont think Daher will control that. I dont see an issue. I know a lot of shops that will.


Username Protected wrote:
Will Daher let their service centers sign off an annual inspection for a TBM that is past TBO?

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 Post subject: Re: TBM 700 and 700A
PostPosted: 09 Dec 2017, 15:19 
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Location: CMB7, Ottawa, Canada
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Here is a couple of 700 that came on the market, a 200smoh for under $1m or run past TBO for under $700k.


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 Post subject: Re: TBM 700 and 700A
PostPosted: 09 Dec 2017, 16:01 
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Are there oddball 91 operators (Ag or other) who routinely run this class of PT6 over TBO with good results?


All the time, cue Craig C to answer you question of mystery and intrigue


Yes, we completely ignore TBO. Our planes currently range from 10,000-14,000 SMOH. That said, we do comply with HSI intervals and usually do them as much as twice as often as recommended by Pratt. If you have someone who will treat you right on hots, they can be a good way to save money. In addition to finding discrepancies while there is still time to repair instead of replace, frequent hot sections can be a vital tool in determining if current operating practices are allowing for the most economical outcome.

Our in house limits are currently 1000 hours on starter/generators, 5000 on CT blades, 1500 on hot sections, 5000 on FCUs, High pressure fuel pumps, and power sections. Most every thing else is done "on condition". As far as cycle limits, we strictly observe them on all rotating components.

The results have been outstanding. Dispatch reliability is nearly perfect and operating expense is only a fraction of what Pratt quotes.
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 Post subject: Re: TBM 700 and 700A
PostPosted: 09 Dec 2017, 16:48 
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Username Protected wrote:
Are there oddball 91 operators (Ag or other) who routinely run this class of PT6 over TBO with good results?


Yes, we completely ignore TBO. Our planes currently range from 10,000-14,000 SMOH. That said, we do comply with HSI intervals and usually do them as much as twice as often as recommended by Pratt. If you have someone who will treat you right on hots, they can be a good way to save money. In addition to finding discrepancies while there is still time to repair instead of replace, frequent hot sections can be a vital tool in determining if current operating practices are allowing for the most economical outcome.

Our in house limits are currently 1000 hours on starter/generators, 5000 on CT blades, 1500 on hot sections, 5000 on FCUs, High pressure fuel pumps, and power sections. Most every thing else is done "on condition". As far as cycle limits, we strictly observe them on all rotating components.

The results have been outstanding. Dispatch reliability is nearly perfect and operating expense is only a fraction of what Pratt quotes.


what does that translate to as a percent savings of engine operation? (% of $/hr). is it a 10% savings, or 90%?
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 Post subject: Re: TBM 700 and 700A
PostPosted: 09 Dec 2017, 16:54 
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Armchair calculations here: an O/H is what - $250-350K? So let's assume the hots are in the $10-60K region? Let's pick a number, let's say they cost $300K to overhaul and $30K to hot. Then on a 10000hr engine you're saving $631K over it's lifetime. Pretty good!

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 Post subject: Re: TBM 700 and 700A
PostPosted: 09 Dec 2017, 16:58 
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I’m hearing OH’s of a PT66D, TBM850 Engine, may run 4-500,000 in 2018. Had been much lower. Pratt for one is raising prices.

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 Post subject: Re: TBM 700 and 700A
PostPosted: 09 Dec 2017, 17:15 
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I’m hearing OH’s of a PT66D, TBM850 Engine, may run 4-500,000 in 2018. Had been much lower. Pratt for one is raising prices.


When I was selling my TBM I looked at overhaul cost, I was quoted $375k flat rate, if I wanted to do just the hot section inspection it was $24k plus $9k to remove and reinstall. That was last year, I can’t see the 850 engine being more than that. Pratt is not raising prices any faster or eqregiously more than Socata. Some of their part prices are absolutely breath taking along with the obligatory glacial lead times. Price a heated windshield, I did in 2015, $16k, in 2017 that same windshield in 2016 was $27k and 35 weeks plus freight from France. Great airplane loved it, but the maintenance costs are on par with a jet.

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 Post subject: Re: TBM 700 and 700A
PostPosted: 09 Dec 2017, 17:20 
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Anyone who does not call Craig C before they do a hot or an overhaul is doing themselves a disservice..........a serious disservice

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 Post subject: Re: TBM 700 and 700A
PostPosted: 09 Dec 2017, 17:57 
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Username Protected wrote:

what does that translate to as a percent savings of engine operation? (% of $/hr). is it a 10% savings, or 90%?


Since I'm most familiar with the small and medium sized engines (-21 up to -42), I'll use them as an example.

We can buy a 3500 hour first run -41 engine for about $125,000 off of King Air and start from there. Our experience over the last 15,000 hours has shown that it will cost us about $20 an hour for an engine specialist and parts to keep it going. If you include our labor for everyday line maintenance, we could round that number up to $25 an hour and have plenty of cushion.

If we operate that engine to 14,000 hours, Pratt would suggest that we should perform 3 overhauls in that time period and we would end up with a run out engine at that point with fairly low cycles remaining. Those 3 overhauls would probably average at least $300K each, so we'd be in for $900K plus about 3 hot sections would probably run around 30K each, so you'd be right a $1,000,000. Figure at least $5 an hour for regular line maintenance and you are easily over the one million mark for 10,500 hours of use, or in round numbers, $100 per hour.

The way we have been doing it, we could just run on condition for 10,500 hours at $25 per for a cost of $262,500. At the end of both scenarios we have a very low value engine that might bring $30K for parts.

I'll go ahead and put on my asbestos underwear since I know some of the folks who regularly get hosed by big name shops will flame away, but as the old saying goes, don't tell a man that a thing is impossible after he has already done it.

I'll also be the first to concede that the -60 series engines are not nearly as economical to operate as the small and medium versions of the PT6A. I'd triple my budget for a -66D and hope like heck that I could keep the cost down to double what I have been paying.

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Last edited on 10 Dec 2017, 08:49, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: TBM 700 and 700A
PostPosted: 09 Dec 2017, 18:07 
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Username Protected wrote:
[

I'll also be the first to concede that the -60 series engines are not nearly as economical to operate as the small and medium versions of the PT6A. I'd triple my budget for a -66D and hope like heck that I could keep the cost down to double what I have been paying.


Thanks for some real world numbers, Craig.

Why are they more expensive? Are the cycle times different on the rotables or are the parts just more expensive?

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 Post subject: Re: TBM 700 and 700A
PostPosted: 09 Dec 2017, 18:10 
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Username Protected wrote:
I’m hearing OH’s of a PT66D, TBM850 Engine, may run 4-500,000 in 2018. Had been much lower. Pratt for one is raising prices.


When I was selling my TBM I looked at overhaul cost, I was quoted $375k flat rate, if I wanted to do just the hot section inspection it was $24k plus $9k to remove and reinstall. That was last year, I can’t see the 850 engine being more than that. Pratt is not raising prices any faster or eqregiously more than Socata. Some of their part prices are absolutely breath taking along with the obligatory glacial lead times. Price a heated windshield, I did in 2015, $16k, in 2017 that same windshield in 2016 was $27k and 35 weeks plus freight from France. Great airplane loved it, but the maintenance costs are on par with a jet.



That overhaul cost seems reasonable for that particular engine. I bet you had to guarantee a lot of things in order to get that price.

As far as the hot, what needed to be removed and reinstalled? Can't you just split the engine at the "C" flange and leave the engine on the airframe like every other Pratt powered plane?

Most aircraft allow for the engine to be split by two guys in a matter of hours and the entire hot section should be on a bench before lunch break. It should take no more than a day's labor for one guy to do a very thorough inspection, then another half day to put it all back together again using a few hundred dollars worth of hardware and gaskets. Even on a tightly cowled aircraft, I wouldn't expect the hot section labor to exceed 24 hours worth of work.

To be fair, I've never worked on a TBM, so they may have consulted someone at Mooney on the proper way to make an engine completely inaccessible to the mechanic.
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Last edited on 10 Dec 2017, 08:50, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: TBM 700 and 700A
PostPosted: 09 Dec 2017, 18:15 
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Username Protected wrote:
[

I'll also be the first to concede that the -60 series engines are not nearly as economical to operate as the small and medium versions of the PT6A. I'd triple my budget for a -66D and hope like heck that I could keep the cost down to double what I have been paying.


Thanks for some real world numbers, Craig.

Why are they more expensive? Are the cycle times different on the rotables or are the parts just more expensive?


The parts are outrageously expensive and as far as I know there isn't much PMA support for those engines at this time. Pratt has enjoyed a near monopoly on engines in this HP category, so there may not be much incentive to do much belt tightening for the 1200-2000hp segment.

As far as the HSI/OH intervals and rotating cycle limits, I think the -60 series is right in line with the rest of the PT6A family, so I think you are still dividing the parts/labor cost over the same number of hours as you would any other of their engines.
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