Same in the 6 different airplanes I have flown with UNS. We have to set VS. AP won’t fly it. Planes are EFIS 85 KA 350, Sabre 60, Sabre 60SC, Sabre 65, GIIB, GIII

Flying these STARS is one place where I love auto throttles. You want 250 knots, dial it in and forget it.

One less thing to worry about.

I attached my favorite

This suggests an app could provide the same function. That is, the GPS provides the lateral guidance the AP actually follows, while the app provides the VNAV cues.

Obviously not as awesome as the AP doing it on its own, but would be a workload reducer.

Maybe this already exists? If not, should be suggested to the EFB app providers if the data is available in the database.

Mike C.

A device similar to Flightstream 210/510 could send that information over to the tablet since the navigators typically have baro altitude knowledge.


Jepp may not be the only source.

Mike C.

VNAV is awesome for a STAR if the FMS is easily programmed to use it. On the PL21, when you select the STAR, it loads all of the waypoints along with altitudes and speeds. Once you are cleared to descend via, just push the VNAV button on the mode selector.

One "gotcha" I recently experienced was going into DFW. They asked us if we could accept a particular RNAV STAR. We looked it over and said sure! Loaded it and flew it. Most of the waypoints were marked with max altitude and minimum altitude. The FMS loaded the max altitudes. The issue with this is, when you get to the last fix before "cross at xxxx and 200 kts", you have 5 miles to lose 3000' and over 100 kts. We ended up with speed brakes and idle power to make the cross. Had we gone to the minimum altitude on the last 1 or 2 fixes, we would have only had to lose 1000' in 5 miles. It was totally my fault for not foreseeing this sooner than I did.

Make sense? Those are approximate altitudes without looking at the STAR they gave us. I can post it up if anybody is interested.

That's interesting...my PL21 crosses at the mins, and utilizes descent smoothing in the middle.

Had this exact conversation with jesse j yesterday. My general rule is aim for the lowest altitude in the range so as to minimize fire drill over the last waypoint. If you have time to study it (less likely SP) to understand the nuances then you might choose a different strategy.

Things to be aware of: altitude, speed, Vs required, leg length and turn radius. Only takes one to send you to the NASA report template.

Fire drill- yep! That's what happened.

We had fully briefed the STAR we were originally assigned. The newly assigned, not so much. What is really ironic is that my copilot that day also works in the safety department of a large operator. He was showing me a different STAR into DFW that caused a pilot deviation with their department. It was exactly what happened to us an hour later...but, we made the restriction. I was very humbled, as I bet was he.

Be careful guys. It's a jungle out there!

One of the other workload shifts (compared to the KA) is getting the plane out of the 40's instead of the 20's. Nothing tough about this but often times I'm still in cruise in the KA and have already picked up the Atis, briefed the approach and punched it in. In the CJ, I'm usually on the way down before I can pickup Atis so I'm doing both things. I'm still experimenting with descent rates and have been using 2500' most of the time (I think I'll probably inch that up over time). As Alan mentioned, the higher this number is, the more fuel you'll save. I'm not great at it yet, but I try to keep the CJ right against the barber pole on the way down (this is some work so I don't try it if I'm loaded up but it's fun to do)- I wouldn't do that very often in the KA, the wing was too high-lift and hitting bumps above 180 indicated wasn't comfortable.

Stuff comes at you at a pretty good clip on the way down in the CJ. I'm keeping up OK but I don't have a big bag of tricks reach into to get caught up if I fall behind. You'd like to think you could just slow-up but I can often hear traffic in front and behind me and ATC has slowed them to my speeds so even if I don't have a speed restriction I'd need to tell them if I slowed and risk punishment.

In the KA, I used a "10 miles from the airport or IAF" rule for slowing up. This is where I slow to initial flap speed and go down or whatever is appropriate for the mission. I've been using this same number in the CJ and finding that I'm awful busy in this last ten miles if I have to go down&slow down. I'll be right up against 250KTS to this point so if I get dumped in, I'm a busy MF'r getting it slowed up and down. The CJ does go down pretty well but idle thrust in the KA is an incredible tool that the CJ just doesn't have. Yes, I could use the speed brakes, but that's admitting failure.... So depending on how high I am, I'll slow up before this point to compensate. I was being held pretty high for the GPS approach into SBP the other day, maybe 5 miles from the IAF I was 5000' above it so the controller said he was vectoring me for descent and I came back and said I could make it if he gave me direct (wanted to have some fun!), I knew this was happening so I was already slow so I chopped the throttles and popped the boards and space-shuttled down.

Good summary, John. Sounds like you’re having fun. One thing I’ve found on descent/fuel strategy is to maximize speed with power all the way back up high, but then let the airplane slow down naturally when you get into thicker air below FL200. Once in the teens, running at barber pole consumes more fuel unless your descent rate gets really high. Some STARs require fast speeds down low and you have to go with it, but when not on a STAR it can be easier at times to just allow the thicker air to slow you down a little.

Regarding VNAV on STARS, a technique I’ve found effective is to delete some of the over/under altitudes and let the FMS recalculate new crossing altitudes for those waypoints. Then, just verify the new altitudes comply with the published windows. The result is a smooth glide path to a crossing point.

2000 fpm descent is a 3 degree descent in the CJ2 and what the PL21 VNAV defaults to. 2000 - 2500 fpm descent seems to work fine in the FL if ATC allows it.

Airspeed is 230 kts in descents unless ATC asks for faster, 180 kts once in terminal environment being vectored around and allows for flaps to APPR, 160 kts on intermediate approach segments, then slow to Vref before FAF.

We normally hit IAF around 200 and put in about 62% power in the II. Gear and flaps down at FAF, but we didn't shoot for Vref until very short final or be there at the end of the runway at 50'. Vref at FAF would make for a pretty slow approach, wouldn't it

We normally hit IAF around 200 and put in about 62% power in the II. Gear and flaps down at FAF, but we didn't shoot for Vref until very short final or be there at the end of the runway at 50'. Vref at FAF would make for a pretty slow approach, wouldn't it

Ahh, that rings a bell. I just don't recall the target speed at FAF. Just remember a constant slowing from IAF and gear and flaps down at FAF really helped slow. Speed brakes if needed. Usually had to adjust power slightly on short final, but not much.