23 Apr 2024, 07:32 [ UTC - 5; DST ]
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Post subject: Re: My first 60 hours in a CJ2  Posted: 16 May 2018, 21:11 |
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Joined: 03/28/17
Posts: 6690
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Location: N. California
Aircraft: C-182
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Username Protected wrote:
I think you have the engine fire drill down correctly Bob. It's pretty universal:
Except on Citations it seems.  
I'm not sure why the Citations have it that way, but it does work. Because the fire handle also cuts off fuel universally, that works, but one advantage I can think of bringing the throttle back first is that if the fire warning was due to a bleed air leak, the fire warning might go away at reduced power, before pulling the fire handle where you lose electrics and hydraulics.
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Post subject: Re: My first 60 hours in a CJ2 Posted: 16 May 2018, 21:14 |
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Joined: 05/29/13
Posts: 13587
Post Likes: +10972
Company: Easy Ice, LLC
Location: Marquette, Michigan; Scottsdale, AZ, Telluride
Aircraft: C510,C185,C310,R66
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Boom. Ride was as described. Great test of skill. Exhausting. But never in doubt. Oral was meh. It’s a vent dude. It needs to be clear. 
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Mark Hangen
Deputy Minister of Ice (aka FlyingIceperson)
Power of the Turbine
"Jet Elite"
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Post subject: Re: My first 60 hours in a CJ2 Posted: 16 May 2018, 21:16 |
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Joined: 01/31/09
Posts: 5233
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Location: Northern NJ
Aircraft: SR22;CJ2+;C510
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Username Protected wrote: Boom. Ride was as described. Great test of skill. Exhausting. But never in doubt. Oral was meh. It’s a vent dude. It needs to be clear.   
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Allen
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Post subject: Re: My first 60 hours in a CJ2 Posted: 16 May 2018, 21:29 |
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Joined: 03/28/17
Posts: 6690
Post Likes: +8029
Location: N. California
Aircraft: C-182
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Username Protected wrote: Ok, so going to idle cutoff is really redundant at that point. Fuel and hydraulics are already cut off. It’s really the same setup in the Premier and basically the same engine just a different procedure. I wonder what the design philosophy was between the different procedures since they both accomplish the same end result. I will try to remember to ask Flightsafety when I go next month. Bob, Maybe you could ask them about false fire warnings and bleed leak fire warnings too.. It just seems to me that the procedure is spring loaded to shut down, and could result in shutting down a good engine. Yes, an engine fire is an emergency procedure, but I like the idea of seeing if it really is a fire before shutting down the engine and losing it's systems. And I don't know if the two engines share the same fire bottles. When they're gone, they're gone; use them wisely. Let it burn for a while, it'll eventually burn itself off of the pylon. 
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Post subject: Re: My first 60 hours in a CJ2 Posted: 16 May 2018, 21:34 |
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Joined: 04/01/15
Posts: 225
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Location: Kcrq
Aircraft: KA F90, Premier 1A
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Username Protected wrote: Boom. Ride was as described. Great test of skill. Exhausting. But never in doubt. Oral was meh. It’s a vent dude. It needs to be clear. A huge congratulations is in order!! Well done. Now go home and get some rest. You deserve it.
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Post subject: Re: My first 60 hours in a CJ2 Posted: 16 May 2018, 21:38 |
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Joined: 01/31/09
Posts: 5233
Post Likes: +3026
Location: Northern NJ
Aircraft: SR22;CJ2+;C510
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Username Protected wrote: Bob, Maybe you could ask them about false fire warnings and bleed leak fire warnings too.. It just seems to me that the procedure is spring loaded to shut down, and could result in shutting down a good engine. Yes, an engine fire is an emergency procedure, but I like the idea of seeing if it really is a fire before shutting down the engine and losing it's systems. And I don't know if the two engines share the same fire bottles. When they're gone, they're gone; use them wisely. Let it burn for a while, it'll eventually burn itself off of the pylon. Checking for bleed air leak setting off the fire loop is the purpose of THROTTLE - IDLE first. In the sim the instructor will sometimes set a bleed air leak scenario and many students are too quick to press the fire button and shut down a perfectly good engine. In CJ's both fire bottles can be blown to the same engine if necessary. Attachment: 2018-05-16_2137.png
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Allen
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Post subject: Re: My first 60 hours in a CJ2 Posted: 16 May 2018, 21:42 |
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Joined: 04/01/15
Posts: 225
Post Likes: +185
Location: Kcrq
Aircraft: KA F90, Premier 1A
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Username Protected wrote: Ok, so going to idle cutoff is really redundant at that point. Fuel and hydraulics are already cut off. It’s really the same setup in the Premier and basically the same engine just a different procedure. I wonder what the design philosophy was between the different procedures since they both accomplish the same end result. I will try to remember to ask Flightsafety when I go next month. Bob, Maybe you could ask them about false fire warnings and bleed leak fire warnings too.. It just seems to me that the procedure is spring loaded to shut down, and could result in shutting down a good engine. Yes, an engine fire is an emergency procedure, but I like the idea of seeing if it really is a fire before shutting down the engine and losing it's systems. And I don't know if the two engines share the same fire bottles. When they're gone, they're gone; use them wisely. Let it burn for a while, it'll eventually burn itself off of the pylon.
The procedure is to go to flight idle first to see if the fire goes out. How long to wait is not specified. They recommend 1-2 minutes, which will seem like an eternity while staring at that light. Perhaps, in the Premier, with the throttle in the idle cutoff position it triggers a relay that allows other systems to activate. I am sure there is some reason, just don’t know what it is.
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Post subject: Re: My first 60 hours in a CJ2 Posted: 16 May 2018, 21:43 |
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Joined: 05/29/13
Posts: 13587
Post Likes: +10972
Company: Easy Ice, LLC
Location: Marquette, Michigan; Scottsdale, AZ, Telluride
Aircraft: C510,C185,C310,R66
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Username Protected wrote: Congrats! Sorry for just dipping in and out of thread, so might be a stupid question: was this all done in a simulator? Affirm
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Mark Hangen
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Power of the Turbine
"Jet Elite"
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Post subject: Re: My first 60 hours in a CJ2 Posted: 16 May 2018, 21:59 |
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Joined: 03/28/17
Posts: 6690
Post Likes: +8029
Location: N. California
Aircraft: C-182
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Username Protected wrote: During a practice ride I had a brain fart and didn’t know the proper sequence. I put the throttle in idle...waited...got distracted and came back to it. Thought hmmm...doesn’t matter and went to idle cut off, then the engine fire switch. The instructor caught it and said wrong sequence. I asked why it mattered...didn’t really get an answer other than “because that’s what the checklist says”. Thanks for the info Mark, and congratulations on your successful completion of you're training; I had no doubt, considering your experience. You won't have an FO to kick around any more.
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Post subject: Re: My first 60 hours in a CJ2 Posted: 16 May 2018, 22:04 |
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Joined: 05/29/13
Posts: 13587
Post Likes: +10972
Company: Easy Ice, LLC
Location: Marquette, Michigan; Scottsdale, AZ, Telluride
Aircraft: C510,C185,C310,R66
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Username Protected wrote: During a practice ride I had a brain fart and didn’t know the proper sequence. I put the throttle in idle...waited...got distracted and came back to it. Thought hmmm...doesn’t matter and went to idle cut off, then the engine fire switch. The instructor caught it and said wrong sequence. I asked why it mattered...didn’t really get an answer other than “because that’s what the checklist says”. Thanks for the info Mark, and congratulations on your successful completion of you're training; I had no doubt, considering your experience. You won't have an FO to kick around any more.
Ha. I see what you did there. I have about 500 hours SP in the 500 series. Truth is I love taking BTers along as my SIC. Ok. Hot chicks too. Just like most of us here I don’t like being told I have to do anything.
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Mark Hangen
Deputy Minister of Ice (aka FlyingIceperson)
Power of the Turbine
"Jet Elite"
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Post subject: Re: My first 60 hours in a CJ2 Posted: 16 May 2018, 22:19 |
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Joined: 03/28/17
Posts: 6690
Post Likes: +8029
Location: N. California
Aircraft: C-182
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Username Protected wrote: Bob, Maybe you could ask them about false fire warnings and bleed leak fire warnings too.. It just seems to me that the procedure is spring loaded to shut down, and could result in shutting down a good engine. Yes, an engine fire is an emergency procedure, but I like the idea of seeing if it really is a fire before shutting down the engine and losing it's systems. And I don't know if the two engines share the same fire bottles. When they're gone, they're gone; use them wisely. Let it burn for a while, it'll eventually burn itself off of the pylon. Checking for bleed air leak setting off the fire loop is the purpose of THROTTLE - IDLE first. In the sim the instructor will sometimes set a bleed air leak scenario and many students are too quick to press the fire button and shut down a perfectly good engine. In CJ's both fire bottles can be blown to the same engine if necessary. Attachment: 2018-05-16_2137.png
Yep, I misread the Citation sequence for fire, it has the throttle first. I think the red button at the top of the checklist got me.
What we haven't discussed is the fire bell, if the Citation has one. That should be the first thing to do with an engine fire warning. Silence the bell!
Although I did all the same newbie things the guys I trained did, I always got a kick out watching a new captain trainee in the sim when he gets the engine fire on takeoff. He has such a helmet fire going on, trying to control the airplane, calling out commands for gear , flaps, power, trying to remember what checklist to call for next , etc., that he forgets to call for silencing the bell; so there you have three crewmembers hollering at each over over the loud bell, until it dawns on somebody to silence it. Funny scene. 
It really is a safety factor; you can't think straight in an emergency with a bell going off.
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