18 Apr 2024, 01:28 [ UTC - 5; DST ]
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Post subject: Re: My first 60 hours in a CJ2 Posted: 18 Feb 2018, 18:33 |
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Joined: 01/31/09 Posts: 5233 Post Likes: +3026 Location: Northern NJ
Aircraft: SR22;CJ2+;C510
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Username Protected wrote: Having flown like a whopping 2 STAR's in my entire life and clueless about jet operations in general, it seems like the FMS is the bottleneck when it gets really busy. John, do you ever just click off the autopilot and just fly the arrival manually? It seems to me like that would eliminate some of the stress (but as I said, I have no experience with high speed stuff). Too high a workload to hand fly a STAR SP. You have speeds and altitudes to hit while trying to stay ahead of the plane, pickup ATIS, brief approaches, and figure out what the situation is at your arrival airport. These things are designed for 2 crew operations.
_________________ Allen
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Post subject: Re: My first 60 hours in a CJ2 Posted: 18 Feb 2018, 22:59 |
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Joined: 01/16/11 Posts: 11105 Post Likes: +7090 Location: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Aircraft: PC12NG, G3Tat
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Username Protected wrote: Having flown like a whopping 2 STAR's in my entire life and clueless about jet operations in general, it seems like the FMS is the bottleneck when it gets really busy. John, do you ever just click off the autopilot and just fly the arrival manually? It seems to me like that would eliminate some of the stress (but as I said, I have no experience with high speed stuff). Too high a workload to hand fly a STAR SP. You have speeds and altitudes to hit while trying to stay ahead of the plane, pickup ATIS, brief approaches, and figure out what the situation is at your arrival airport. These things are designed for 2 crew operations.
I'm gonna disagree with you Allen and agree with Adam. The FMS is vital........my APEX compared to my GTN750 is light years ahead in terms of operational simplicity when you are talking about busy arrivals and departures...........having the right FMS is damn important IMHO.....I can reprogram an arrival in less than 5 seconds in the APEX and reprogram stepdowns too..........i think that's why the 24 went with the APEX......I believe that they looked at everything and felt that the APEX did a better job Single Pilot
_________________ ---Rusty Shoe Keeper---
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Post subject: Re: My first 60 hours in a CJ2 Posted: 19 Feb 2018, 00:52 |
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Joined: 05/29/13 Posts: 13585 Post Likes: +10972 Company: Easy Ice, LLC Location: Marquette, Michigan; Scottsdale, AZ, Telluride
Aircraft: C510,C185,C310,R66
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Username Protected wrote: Too high a workload to hand fly a STAR SP. You have speeds and altitudes to hit while trying to stay ahead of the plane, pickup ATIS, brief approaches, and figure out what the situation is at your arrival airport.
These things are designed for 2 crew operations. I'm gonna disagree with you Allen and agree with Adam. The FMS is vital........my APEX compared to my GTN750 is light years ahead in terms of operational simplicity when you are talking about busy arrivals and departures...........having the right FMS is damn important IMHO.....I can reprogram an arrival in less than 5 seconds in the APEX and reprogram stepdowns too..........i think that's why the 24 went with the APEX......I believe that they looked at everything and felt that the APEX did a better job Single Pilot
What? Now I am confused damnit
_________________ Mark Hangen Deputy Minister of Ice (aka FlyingIceperson) Power of the Turbine "Jet Elite"
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Post subject: Re: My first 60 hours in a CJ2 Posted: 19 Feb 2018, 00:54 |
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Joined: 01/31/09 Posts: 5233 Post Likes: +3026 Location: Northern NJ
Aircraft: SR22;CJ2+;C510
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Username Protected wrote: The idea is to get good enough managing the AP that it reduces workload. The proline 21 AP is awesome! I wish it had a vnav mode but it does everything else I could ever want. That’s what the + models with the Collins FMS3000 fixed.
_________________ Allen
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Post subject: Re: My first 60 hours in a CJ2 Posted: 19 Feb 2018, 00:59 |
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Joined: 01/31/09 Posts: 5233 Post Likes: +3026 Location: Northern NJ
Aircraft: SR22;CJ2+;C510
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Username Protected wrote: I'm gonna disagree with you Allen and agree with Adam. The FMS is vital........my APEX compared to my GTN750 is light years ahead in terms of operational simplicity when you are talking about busy arrivals and departures...........having the right FMS is damn important IMHO.....I can reprogram an arrival in less than 5 seconds in the APEX and reprogram stepdowns too..........i think that's why the 24 went with the APEX......I believe that they looked at everything and felt that the APEX did a better job Single Pilot
I don’t see what you are disagreeing about. A good FMS handles STARs with no problem. The GTN750 is barely an FMS and the UNS is weak in VNAV. Either way hand flying a STAR that Adam proposed is not the answer. With weak avionics SP work hard and for crews it is not an issue.
_________________ Allen
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Post subject: Re: My first 60 hours in a CJ2 Posted: 19 Feb 2018, 01:09 |
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Joined: 05/29/13 Posts: 13585 Post Likes: +10972 Company: Easy Ice, LLC Location: Marquette, Michigan; Scottsdale, AZ, Telluride
Aircraft: C510,C185,C310,R66
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Username Protected wrote: I'm gonna disagree with you Allen and agree with Adam. The FMS is vital........my APEX compared to my GTN750 is light years ahead in terms of operational simplicity when you are talking about busy arrivals and departures...........having the right FMS is damn important IMHO.....I can reprogram an arrival in less than 5 seconds in the APEX and reprogram stepdowns too..........i think that's why the 24 went with the APEX......I believe that they looked at everything and felt that the APEX did a better job Single Pilot
I don’t see what you are disagreeing about. A good FMS handles STARs with no problem. The GTN750 is barely an FMS and the UNS is weak in VNAV. Either way hand flying a STAR that Adam proposed is not the answer. With weak avionics SP work hard and for crews it is not an issue.
I got you on this Allen
_________________ Mark Hangen Deputy Minister of Ice (aka FlyingIceperson) Power of the Turbine "Jet Elite"
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Post subject: Re: My first 60 hours in a CJ2 Posted: 19 Feb 2018, 05:03 |
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Joined: 03/09/13 Posts: 910 Post Likes: +449 Location: Byron Bay,NSW Australia
Aircraft: CE525,PA31
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Username Protected wrote: I don’t see what you are disagreeing about.
I think it’s about the FMS, Adam said it was a bottleneck and Penman is saying the APEX is 5 secs to reprogram so it’s not a crew issues flying the STAR. Maybe I misread it though. Andrew
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Post subject: Re: My first 60 hours in a CJ2 Posted: 19 Feb 2018, 08:24 |
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Joined: 01/16/11 Posts: 11105 Post Likes: +7090 Location: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Aircraft: PC12NG, G3Tat
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Username Protected wrote: I don’t see what you are disagreeing about.
I think it’s about the FMS, Adam said it was a bottleneck and Penman is saying the APEX is 5 secs to reprogram so it’s not a crew issues flying the STAR. Maybe I misread it though. Andrew
Andrew gets me
_________________ ---Rusty Shoe Keeper---
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Post subject: Re: My first 60 hours in a CJ2 Posted: 19 Feb 2018, 10:30 |
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Joined: 05/29/13 Posts: 13585 Post Likes: +10972 Company: Easy Ice, LLC Location: Marquette, Michigan; Scottsdale, AZ, Telluride
Aircraft: C510,C185,C310,R66
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Username Protected wrote: I think it’s about the FMS, Adam said it was a bottleneck and Penman is saying the APEX is 5 secs to reprogram so it’s not a crew issues flying the STAR.
Maybe I misread it though.
Andrew
Andrew gets me
Well you both talk funny so there is that.
_________________ Mark Hangen Deputy Minister of Ice (aka FlyingIceperson) Power of the Turbine "Jet Elite"
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Post subject: Re: My first 60 hours in a CJ2 Posted: 20 Feb 2018, 00:45 |
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Joined: 10/05/09 Posts: 1166 Post Likes: +421 Location: Charleston, SC (KJZI)
Aircraft: Phenom 300, R66
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I recently had to revisit my STAR procedures when on the arrival into Martin State KMTN (north of BWI) from Chicago and given the Anthm3 arrival. The G1000 is minimally effective with a complex STAR (altitude plus speed). I was busy trying to hit fix after fix at altitude and on speed (OLBAY 9000' 250K) when I realized this fix is mere 11 miles from KMTN..... About the same time I realize that I'm fubar for KMTN the controller's supervisor mic's in and offers a circle back to the airport; yeah sure. Apparently I wasn't the only one to fall behind.
The arrival is listed for KMTN but the G1000 loads the full arrival which is really for KBWI south of KMTN. Pull up the FAA ANTHM3 arrival chart and see how "easy" this one is when it is dumped on you at the last minute.
After the fact I looked at the Jepp plate and it was clearer regarding the location of KMTN on the STAR. The FAA version buries the airport in all the clutter. The MFD buries the airport in all of the Class B blue, TFR, traffic and a bunch of other noise.
New procedure is to have Foreflight running with Direct to/from instead of mirroring the flight plan. Now at least the IPAD is always showing me 'hey stupid, the airport is only 11 miles away' where the G1000 is happily sequencing through the step down fixes.
Fun stuff....
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Post subject: Re: My first 60 hours in a CJ2 Posted: 20 Feb 2018, 07:57 |
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Joined: 10/31/14 Posts: 534 Post Likes: +255
Aircraft: eclipse
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Philip I have a Garmin portable mounted for just this reason. It always displays FPM descent to the destination airport and time to destination for the passengers.
When the descent rate is getting over 2000 FPM I am calling and asking for a descent.
To me the biggest difference in flying Jets is the amount of altitude changes you make.
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Post subject: Re: My first 60 hours in a CJ2 Posted: 20 Feb 2018, 12:31 |
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Joined: 01/29/09 Posts: 4697 Post Likes: +2404 Company: retired corporate mostly Location: Chico,California KCIC/CL56
Aircraft: 1956 Champion 7EC
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Quote: fix at altitude and on speed (OLBAY 9000' 250K) I'm not sure if this is exactly what you meant, but if you were descending via the arrival you could (and an FMS would) have you below 9000 at OLBAY descending on your way to being between 5and 6 at CRABZ. 5000 at CRABZ would have made your life easier.
_________________ Jeff
soloed in a land of Superhomers/1959 Cessna 150, retired with Proline 21/ CJ4.
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Post subject: Re: My first 60 hours in a CJ2 Posted: 21 Feb 2018, 01:21 |
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Joined: 12/09/13 Posts: 244 Post Likes: +150 Location: KICT/KFFZ/KLAS
Aircraft: CE25B+/CE25C/DA40
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Username Protected wrote: The CJ is not quite fast enough to fly the typical speeds that airlines can hold on a STAR, so I've been on a descend via star and had it changed in the middle (I warned them way ahead of time I couldn't hold 280) and then put on another descend via star and setup for a different approach at the airport - this is a lot of F'n button pushing for one guy! This hasn't been a problem and I'm absolutely willing to "confess" if I get behind but it is a difference from the KA. In the CJ's I try to look ahead and make a mental note of the max speeds expected. If they're higher than 250 I give the controllers a heads up as soon (or prior) as handed off "unable 280 at XXX, best forward is 250". Even when going into some places like LA they will let us stay on at 250, slowing down the traffic behind us and even using it as an opportunity to slot some really slow stuff like PC-12s or KA in front on the visual. YMMV, but earlier usually increases the chances of staying on in my experience.
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