BeechTalk - BT

Username Protected · **Posted:** 18 Feb 2018, 18:33

Username Protected wrote:

Having flown like a whopping 2 STAR's in my entire life and clueless about jet operations in general, it seems like the FMS is the bottleneck when it gets really busy. John, do you ever just click off the autopilot and just fly the arrival manually? It seems to me like that would eliminate some of the stress (but as I said, I have no experience with high speed stuff).

Too high a workload to hand fly a STAR SP. You have speeds and altitudes to hit while trying to stay ahead of the plane, pickup ATIS, brief approaches, and figure out what the situation is at your arrival airport.

These things are designed for 2 crew operations.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 18 Feb 2018, 21:29

The idea is to get good enough managing the AP that it reduces workload. The proline 21 AP is awesome! I wish it had a vnav mode but it does everything else I could ever want.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 18 Feb 2018, 22:59

Username Protected wrote:

Having flown like a whopping 2 STAR's in my entire life and clueless about jet operations in general, it seems like the FMS is the bottleneck when it gets really busy. John, do you ever just click off the autopilot and just fly the arrival manually? It seems to me like that would eliminate some of the stress (but as I said, I have no experience with high speed stuff).

Too high a workload to hand fly a STAR SP. You have speeds and altitudes to hit while trying to stay ahead of the plane, pickup ATIS, brief approaches, and figure out what the situation is at your arrival airport.

These things are designed for 2 crew operations.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 19 Feb 2018, 00:52

Username Protected wrote:

Too high a workload to hand fly a STAR SP. You have speeds and altitudes to hit while trying to stay ahead of the plane, pickup ATIS, brief approaches, and figure out what the situation is at your arrival airport.

These things are designed for 2 crew operations.

I'm gonna disagree with you Allen and agree with Adam. The FMS is vital........my APEX compared to my GTN750 is light years ahead in terms of operational simplicity when you are talking about busy arrivals and departures...........having the right FMS is damn important IMHO.....I can reprogram an arrival in less than 5 seconds in the APEX and reprogram stepdowns too..........i think that's why the 24 went with the APEX......I believe that they looked at everything and felt that the APEX did a better job Single Pilot

Username Protected · **Posted:** 19 Feb 2018, 00:54

Username Protected wrote:

The idea is to get good enough managing the AP that it reduces workload. The proline 21 AP is awesome! I wish it had a vnav mode but it does everything else I could ever want.

That’s what the + models with the Collins FMS3000 fixed.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 19 Feb 2018, 00:59

Username Protected wrote:

I'm gonna disagree with you Allen and agree with Adam. The FMS is vital........my APEX compared to my GTN750 is light years ahead in terms of operational simplicity when you are talking about busy arrivals and departures...........having the right FMS is damn important IMHO.....I can reprogram an arrival in less than 5 seconds in the APEX and reprogram stepdowns too..........i think that's why the 24 went with the APEX......I believe that they looked at everything and felt that the APEX did a better job Single Pilot

I don’t see what you are disagreeing about.

A good FMS handles STARs with no problem. The GTN750 is barely an FMS and the UNS is weak in VNAV.

Either way hand flying a STAR that Adam proposed is not the answer. With weak avionics SP work hard and for crews it is not an issue.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 19 Feb 2018, 01:09

Username Protected wrote:

I'm gonna disagree with you Allen and agree with Adam. The FMS is vital........my APEX compared to my GTN750 is light years ahead in terms of operational simplicity when you are talking about busy arrivals and departures...........having the right FMS is damn important IMHO.....I can reprogram an arrival in less than 5 seconds in the APEX and reprogram stepdowns too..........i think that's why the 24 went with the APEX......I believe that they looked at everything and felt that the APEX did a better job Single Pilot

I don’t see what you are disagreeing about.

A good FMS handles STARs with no problem. The GTN750 is barely an FMS and the UNS is weak in VNAV.

Either way hand flying a STAR that Adam proposed is not the answer. With weak avionics SP work hard and for crews it is not an issue.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 19 Feb 2018, 05:03

Username Protected wrote:

I don’t see what you are disagreeing about.

I think it’s about the FMS, Adam said it was a bottleneck and Penman is saying the APEX is 5 secs to reprogram so it’s not a crew issues flying the STAR.

Maybe I misread it though.

Andrew

Username Protected · **Posted:** 19 Feb 2018, 08:24

Username Protected wrote:

I don’t see what you are disagreeing about.

I think it’s about the FMS, Adam said it was a bottleneck and Penman is saying the APEX is 5 secs to reprogram so it’s not a crew issues flying the STAR.

Maybe I misread it though.

Andrew

Username Protected · **Posted:** 19 Feb 2018, 10:30

Username Protected wrote:

I think it’s about the FMS, Adam said it was a bottleneck and Penman is saying the APEX is 5 secs to reprogram so it’s not a crew issues flying the STAR.

Maybe I misread it though.

Andrew

Andrew gets me

Username Protected · **Posted:** 20 Feb 2018, 00:45

I recently had to revisit my STAR procedures when on the arrival into Martin State KMTN (north of BWI) from Chicago and given the Anthm3 arrival. The G1000 is minimally effective with a complex STAR (altitude plus speed). I was busy trying to hit fix after fix at altitude and on speed (OLBAY 9000' 250K) when I realized this fix is mere 11 miles from KMTN..... About the same time I realize that I'm fubar for KMTN the controller's supervisor mic's in and offers a circle back to the airport; yeah sure. Apparently I wasn't the only one to fall behind.

The arrival is listed for KMTN but the G1000 loads the full arrival which is really for KBWI south of KMTN. Pull up the FAA ANTHM3 arrival chart and see how "easy" this one is when it is dumped on you at the last minute.

After the fact I looked at the Jepp plate and it was clearer regarding the location of KMTN on the STAR. The FAA version buries the airport in all the clutter. The MFD buries the airport in all of the Class B blue, TFR, traffic and a bunch of other noise.

New procedure is to have Foreflight running with Direct to/from instead of mirroring the flight plan. Now at least the IPAD is always showing me 'hey stupid, the airport is only 11 miles away' where the G1000 is happily sequencing through the step down fixes.

Fun stuff....

Username Protected · **Posted:** 20 Feb 2018, 07:57

Philip
I have a Garmin portable mounted for just this reason. It always displays FPM descent to the destination airport and time to destination for the passengers.

When the descent rate is getting over 2000 FPM I am calling and asking for a descent.

To me the biggest difference in flying Jets is the amount of altitude changes you make.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 20 Feb 2018, 09:55

We used to do everything at 2000 FPM. We took our cruise altitude and doubled it to get miles out to start asking for lower. So if you’re at FL400 start asking about 80 miles out. If you have a tail wind double it and add 10 if you have a headwind subtract 10. Worked out pretty well using 2000 FPM as a reference.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 20 Feb 2018, 12:31

Quote:

fix at altitude and on speed (OLBAY 9000' 250K)

I'm not sure if this is exactly what you meant, but if you were descending via the arrival you could (and an FMS would) have you below 9000 at OLBAY descending on your way to being between 5and 6 at CRABZ. 5000 at CRABZ would have made your life easier.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 21 Feb 2018, 01:21

Username Protected wrote:

The CJ is not quite fast enough to fly the typical speeds that airlines can hold on a STAR, so I've been on a descend via star and had it changed in the middle (I warned them way ahead of time I couldn't hold 280) and then put on another descend via star and setup for a different approach at the airport - this is a lot of F'n button pushing for one guy! This hasn't been a problem and I'm absolutely willing to "confess" if I get behind but it is a difference from the KA.

In the CJ's I try to look ahead and make a mental note of the max speeds expected. If they're higher than 250 I give the controllers a heads up as soon (or prior) as handed off "unable 280 at XXX, best forward is 250". Even when going into some places like LA they will let us stay on at 250, slowing down the traffic behind us and even using it as an opportunity to slot some really slow stuff like PC-12s or KA in front on the visual.

YMMV, but earlier usually increases the chances of staying on in my experience. :shrug:

My first 60 hours in a CJ2