The latest generation RNAV STARS being published seem to have turned a corner, really expecting you to have REAL VNAV.

Some have ~1 zillion waypoints, and you are descending via from the get go, and ride all the way to the downwind. If you have REAL VNAV, this is fun and amusing.

If your motivation was to be nice to the controller, and sound well-avionicked to the strangers on the radio, you'll accept one of these in a non-VNAV'ed aircraft. Hopefully, you'll have a right-seater when you make this particular mistake.

My new phrase of the day in this circumstance is: "Nope, don't have it."

Dumb question, but can you deny accepting a STAR if you don’t have VNAV?

STARs are never required but get a big piece of paper out to copy a long clearance that reads like a STAR. STARs keep ATC from repeating the same clearances over and over again.

There are different types of STARs. You may not want RNAV STARs. If so, do not put RNAV1 in your ICAO equipment codes.

VNAV is helpful on the new RNAV descend VIA type STARs

I wonder if this is still true in areas where 90% of the traffic is going down the RNAV pipe. I'm going to find out on my next old jet flight.

I have flown a number of STARs and I have no VNAV, not even altitude preselect/capture.

I find it easier to fly them than to get no STAR at all and have some full route to copy and manage over the radio. A STAR is at least in the GPS and that eases the flight plan entry.

I have not felt it was hard to manage your altitude on them.

Example I did recently: HYPER7.BAF into KHEF. 19 fixes, 4 charted crossing altitudes, over less than 300 nm in the Northeast corridor. Not many STARs more complex than that one.

Mike C.

4 Altitudes? I can do that one, and I SUCK at math!!!

Look at the PCIFC.OHSEA1 into KSNA.

I was suckered into that (without looking at it first) at the last minute, and had to go idle and speedbrakes in an S550 just to get on board.

I did it, I could do it again, but the idea of workload reduction panned out for the controller, and not for me.

I'd be willing to bet that I could reject the STAR, and get down with 2 vectors/directs and maybe one cross... BECAUSE of the controller's new, lower workloads, and almost everybody else playing along.

Or, maybe they will punish; will have to see.

One of my favs. The killer SP is the 90 degree turn between quynn and reddn. Just a 3 mile leg at 250 knots. Just about time you are doing a checklist. Throw in an CDI that doesn’t autoslew.

The Mits could only fly this with a speed wavier. That dumbs it down quite a bit.

4 altitudes on the chart. I got ~8 from ATC.


Would be an interesting experiment.

Mike C.

The chart is "turbojet only", but 240 knots would be no problem so I could make the MU2 fit in the flow. At those altitudes, I'd have to be less than 100% power in level flight not to exceed 250 knots Vmo.

BTW, HYPER7 has a speed of 250 knots at HYPER, which I was doing.

Mike C.

4 altitudes and your saying that’s complex. Take a look at the Iron Man in LAX. Or hell even the Hydrr1 into PHX. Plus the 2 Mark and Bill posted.

No PC sim for the UNS-1 that I know of.

Flight Safety has ground procedure trainers in some locations with UNS-1. You can spend as much time as you want flying them while at the training center.

My co-pilot was a former controller. When we arrived to D/FW area from the west, he always filed an arrival that didn't have speeds in the Citation II because we couldn't make them. However, they always assigned the one he didn't want to fly. When he responded with unable, he also said he could fly the one he filed so they had an immediate choice. They always, then cleared us for the one we had filed.
Technically, we could fly the faster arrival because the higher speed was on the transition, not the last segment which is the actual arrival, however, that was obviously designed to accommodate faster traffic and we didn't want to slow it down or get constantly recleared.
If concerned, it's good to have an alternative at the ready.

You have AP certification issues to tie the GTN into if the AP never did VNAV.

UNS VNAV in CJ2 is not coupled to the AP. It gives vertical speed required and shows snowflake glide path indicator for pilot to manually follow using VS on AP.

Collins FMS-3000 does full VNAV, posts altitude from FMS next waypoint onto PFD, automatically descends at proper vertical speed and levels off. PIlot just needs to jockey throttle for airspeed.

Allen

4 altitudes and your saying that’s complex. Take a look at the Iron Man in LAX. Or hell even the Hydrr1 into PHX. Plus the 2 Mark and Bill posted.

This suggests an app could provide the same function. That is, the GPS provides the lateral guidance the AP actually follows, while the app provides the VNAV cues.

Obviously not as awesome as the AP doing it on its own, but would be a workload reducer.

Maybe this already exists? If not, should be suggested to the EFB app providers if the data is available in the database.

Mike C.