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 Post subject: Re: Best t-prop or jet for $1.3m?
PostPosted: 16 Nov 2017, 21:42 
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Username Protected wrote:
I don't think I've ever experienced that. (I'm > 99% sure.)

I get a new registration, but the airworthiness cert stays the original unless you change N number.

FAA uses two dates - one is A/W date, that's the date of original issuance, and then there is issue date - that's the date when the registration data has been changed. Here is mine:
A/W date is 8/25/1967
Attachment:
Screen Shot 2017-11-16 at 19.40.10.png

But Certificate issue date is 10/17/2014
Attachment:
Screen Shot 2017-11-16 at 19.38.33.png


When I was counting the 26 above for Phenom I was using the latter dates.


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 Post subject: Re: Best t-prop or jet for $1.3m?
PostPosted: 16 Nov 2017, 21:45 
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Username Protected wrote:
I don't think I've ever experienced that. (I'm > 99% sure.)

I get a new registration, but the airworthiness cert stays the original unless you change N number.

FAA uses two dates - one is A/W date, that's the date of original issuance, and then there is issue date - that's the date when the registration data has been changed. Here is mine:
A/W date is 8/25/1967
Attachment:
Screen Shot 2017-11-16 at 19.40.10.png

But Certificate issue date is 10/17/2014
Attachment:
Screen Shot 2017-11-16 at 19.38.33.png


When I was counting the 26 above for Phenom I was using the latter dates.


That's the registration certificate date, not AWC date. That's why it's not under "Airworthiness" section. It also lists the expiration which obviously has nothing to do with the AWC.

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 Post subject: Re: Best t-prop or jet for $1.3m?
PostPosted: 16 Nov 2017, 21:51 
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Company: Keller Williams Realty
Location: Madison, WI (91C)
Aircraft: 1967 Bonanza V35
Username Protected wrote:

That's the registration certificate date, not AWC date. That's why it's not under "Airworthiness" section. It also lists the expiration which obviously has nothing to do with the AWC.

Your point being?

It is listed on the FAA registry as issuance date.
It can be used to track ownership changes.
There were 26 of those in last 6 months for Phenom 100


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 Post subject: Re: Best t-prop or jet for $1.3m?
PostPosted: 16 Nov 2017, 21:58 
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Username Protected wrote:

That's the registration certificate date, not AWC date. That's why it's not under "Airworthiness" section. It also lists the expiration which obviously has nothing to do with the AWC.

Your point being?

It is listed on the FAA registry as issuance date.
It can be used to track ownership changes.
There were 26 of those in last 6 months for Phenom 100


You said: "Yes" when someone asked whether a new AWC is issued when the owner changes. That is completely wrong, I just wanted to point out the error you made.
You get registration and airworthiness mixed up.

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 Post subject: Re: Best t-prop or jet for $1.3m?
PostPosted: 16 Nov 2017, 23:19 
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Username Protected wrote:
It looks like 19 have sold in that last six months... and that's just 100's not 100E or 100EV

The days on market were not bad... less than 6 months in most cases...

I think they may be selling a little better than you think.

Controller is always full of airplanes that are not really for sale... or have already sold. Listing brokers need ads so they typically leave them up as long as possible.

So 28 used NON E and NON EV Phenoms change hands every year? Only 350 Phenom 100's have been built and that includes the E and EV. Your number doesn't even include new sales.

There are 6 Phenom 100's flying right now compared to 66 PC12's and I'll bet 28 used PC12's don't change hands in year.

Where are you getting this "19 sales in 6 months" number?


You’d be way off... I would guess that 60 - 80 PC-12’s have changed hands in the last six months.

You are basing your assumptions on Controller, there’s a whole lot of airplanes sold every day that never show up on Controller.

This is what we do, the world we operate in. If we just bought airplanes that were on Controller and had nothing else to offer our clients... we’d go out of business.
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 Post subject: Re: Best t-prop or jet for $1.3m?
PostPosted: 17 Nov 2017, 00:34 
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Aircraft: Baron B55 N7123N
Username Protected wrote:
I get a new registration, but the airworthiness cert stays the original unless you change N number.

The date of airworthiness can also change even though the N-number is the same. My Baron is an example of that as it was used during the process of obtaining the STC for Chuck Ney's IO-470(x)-MOD engine. N7123N was changed to EXPERIMENTAL while Chuck was going through the hoops for the FAA. Once the STC was granted, the airplane was reverted back to STANDARD and a new airworthiness certificate was issued on 03/26/2006.

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 Post subject: Re: Best t-prop or jet for $1.3m?
PostPosted: 17 Nov 2017, 05:01 
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Location: Byron Bay,NSW Australia
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Username Protected wrote:
This is what we do, the world we operate in. If we just bought airplanes that were on Controller and had nothing else to offer our clients... we’d go out of business.


Working with a good broker /buyers agent is really cool. You learn so much. These guys work in this space 24/7. You still have the cash and make the final call.

Once I realised I don’t know everything I really appreciated this.

Andrew.


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 Post subject: Re: Best t-prop or jet for $1.3m?
PostPosted: 17 Nov 2017, 08:06 
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Username Protected wrote:
A new airworthiness cert is issued when a used airplane is sold to a new owner?

Edit: No, but registration is.

OK then. Start over. What point are you trying to make then?

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 Post subject: Re: Best t-prop or jet for $1.3m?
PostPosted: 17 Nov 2017, 08:09 
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Username Protected wrote:
You’d be way off... I would guess that 60 - 80 PC-12’s have changed hands in the last six months.

You are basing your assumptions on Controller, there’s a whole lot of airplanes sold every day that never show up on Controller.

This is what we do, the world we operate in. If we just bought airplanes that were on Controller and had nothing else to offer our clients... we’d go out of business.

I'm not basing anything on Controller. Stop saying that.

There are 1500+ PC12's. There are less than 300 NonEV Phenom 100's.

You're telling me 38 non EV Phenom 100's change hands every year when probably less than 300 have been built? The whole fleet turns over every few years??


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 Post subject: Re: Best t-prop or jet for $1.3m?
PostPosted: 17 Nov 2017, 08:34 
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Can we please answer the original question? :btt:

A guy is looking to drop 1.2, 1.3, 1.5, whatever. What are his options, and what is the objective cost to fly it?

Some of use are really watching this thread, close to the jump, but the discussion here about how planes sell is irrelevant.

I've never considered that a Phenom 300 is a player in the 1.5M arena, and if it was, the operating cost would make it prohibitive for that buying-segment, no?

shouldn't this be more like a TBM, Meridian, KA, legacy PC12, Cheyenne, 425, etc... discussion?

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 Post subject: Re: Best t-prop or jet for $1.3m?
PostPosted: 17 Nov 2017, 09:07 
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Username Protected wrote:
Can we please answer the original question? :btt:

A guy is looking to drop 1.2, 1.3, 1.5, whatever. What are his options, and what is the objective cost to fly it?

Some of use are really watching this thread, close to the jump, but the discussion here about how planes sell is irrelevant.

I've never considered that a Phenom 300 is a player in the 1.5M arena, and if it was, the operating cost would make it prohibitive for that buying-segment, no?

shouldn't this be more like a TBM, Meridian, KA, legacy PC12, Cheyenne, 425, etc... discussion?


Phenom 100?


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 Post subject: Re: Best t-prop or jet for $1.3m?
PostPosted: 17 Nov 2017, 09:10 
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Username Protected wrote:
Can we please answer the original question? :btt:

A guy is looking to drop 1.2, 1.3, 1.5, whatever. What are his options, and what is the objective cost to fly it?

Some of use are really watching this thread, close to the jump, but the discussion here about how planes sell is irrelevant.

I've never considered that a Phenom 300 is a player in the 1.5M arena, and if it was, the operating cost would make it prohibitive for that buying-segment, no?

shouldn't this be more like a TBM, Meridian, KA, legacy PC12, Cheyenne, 425, etc... discussion?

I think you're not reading the thread.

"How long it takes a plane to sell" is totally relevant to the thread title. How many of a type are listed is totally relevant to the thread title. How many of a type turn over in a year is totally relevant to the thread title.

We're talking Phenom 100.... Not 300.


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 Post subject: Re: Best t-prop or jet for $1.3m?
PostPosted: 17 Nov 2017, 09:29 
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Username Protected wrote:
You’d be way off... I would guess that 60 - 80 PC-12’s have changed hands in the last six months.

You are basing your assumptions on Controller, there’s a whole lot of airplanes sold every day that never show up on Controller.

This is what we do, the world we operate in. If we just bought airplanes that were on Controller and had nothing else to offer our clients... we’d go out of business.

I'm not basing anything on Controller. Stop saying that.

There are 1500+ PC12's. There are less than 300 NonEV Phenom 100's.

You're telling me 38 non EV Phenom 100's change hands every year when probably less than 300 have been built? The whole fleet turns over every few years??


Ok, I’ll stop!!! :peace:

I’ll look at the total today, it takes a little time beacuse I have to take out the back to backs because they inflate the numbers.

The number of sales of the Phenom 100 actually proves your point, it isn’t that they are that popular, it’s that people buy them, keep them for a year ir two and then want something else.

Most PC-12 owners keep the airplane for a long time because they are happy with it. Plus, what else are you going to buy? That’s one reason the PC-24 will sell like hotcakes.
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 Post subject: Re: Best t-prop or jet for $1.3m?
PostPosted: 17 Nov 2017, 09:36 
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Username Protected wrote:
Can we please answer the original question? :btt:

A guy is looking to drop 1.2, 1.3, 1.5, whatever. What are his options, and what is the objective cost to fly it?

Some of use are really watching this thread, close to the jump, but the discussion here about how planes sell is irrelevant.

I've never considered that a Phenom 300 is a player in the 1.5M arena, and if it was, the operating cost would make it prohibitive for that buying-segment, no?

shouldn't this be more like a TBM, Meridian, KA, legacy PC12, Cheyenne, 425, etc... discussion?


The short answer is that most of the airplanes you mentioned have very similiar op cost, save the Meridian.

TBM, King Air, PC-12, CJ, CJ1, Phenom 100... all very close. Conquest and Cheyenne a little cheaper, but other issues ofset some of that especially on the Cheyenne.

Operating cost is way too complex to post on a thread, just too many variables. That is also why it is so hard to find good information about op cost.

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 Post subject: Re: Best t-prop or jet for $1.3m?
PostPosted: 17 Nov 2017, 09:37 
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Username Protected wrote:
The number of sales of the Phenom 100 actually proves your point, it isn’t that they are that popular, it’s that people buy them, keep them for a year ir two and then want something else.

Does the fact that nobody has ever asked you to buy them a Phenom 100 mean anything? If 38 change hands in a year it seems you'd come across some deals?


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