29 Mar 2024, 11:11 [ UTC - 5; DST ]
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Post subject: Re: Evolution Aircraft ceasing operation Posted: 25 Oct 2017, 00:13 |
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Joined: 05/13/11 Posts: 127 Post Likes: +49
Aircraft: None
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Back to the liability thing. I thought the issue wasn't Evolution's liability (i.e., the reason GA stopped in the late '80's) but had more to do with insurer's saying "nope" after the poor accident record. And it's hard (not impossible, but a significant headwind) to sell an uninsurable plane. True or false?
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Post subject: Re: Lancair ceasing operations Posted: 25 Oct 2017, 23:12 |
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Joined: 12/10/07 Posts: 7975 Post Likes: +6844 Location: New York, NY
Aircraft: Debonair C33A
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Username Protected wrote: I'm gonna guess death blow.
5/90 hulls lost in two years... maybe this is the free market at work.
Anyone got the details on those 5 losses? Did they involve the airplanes falling apart in the air, or pilots flying perfectly good airplanes into a mountainside? Maybe it's the same situation as with early Cirrus, pilots with more money than skills and training getting in over their heads....
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Post subject: Re: Evolution Aircraft ceasing operation Posted: 25 Oct 2017, 23:43 |
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Joined: 11/22/12 Posts: 2572 Post Likes: +2330 Company: Retired Location: Lynnwood, WA (KPAE)
Aircraft: 1993 Bonanza A36TN
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Username Protected wrote: I thought the issue wasn't Evolution's liability (i.e., the reason GA stopped in the late '80's) but had more to do with insurer's saying "nope" after the poor accident record. And it's hard (not impossible, but a significant headwind) to sell an uninsurable plane. True or false? How would anyone outside the company be able to give a definitive answer to that question? I attended the EAC Fly-In the weekend before the surprise announcement. There was much discussion of the cost (not availability) of hull insurance, the number of carriers offering insurance had dropped from 5 to 2 in the last year, largely through mergers, and rates had gone up. See the attached slide for one of those companies. There was no mention of any issues with EAC's insurance.
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Post subject: Re: Lancair ceasing operations Posted: 25 Oct 2017, 23:56 |
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Joined: 11/22/12 Posts: 2572 Post Likes: +2330 Company: Retired Location: Lynnwood, WA (KPAE)
Aircraft: 1993 Bonanza A36TN
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Username Protected wrote: Anyone got the details on those 5 losses? I don't know how they got 5, I count 4 hull losses of various causes. 8/13/15 - Pilot incapacitation, overflew California to the Pacific Ocean. 1 fatal. (date unknown) Fuel contamination, off-airport landing. No fatals. 5/15/17 - Windshield broke out, cause yet unknown. Gear up landing, no fatals. 7/17/2017 - Stall/spin in pattern after electrical failure, 2 fatals. That's over $4 million in payouts, far exceeding premiums during that time.
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Post subject: Re: Lancair ceasing operations Posted: 26 Oct 2017, 22:09 |
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Joined: 12/10/07 Posts: 7975 Post Likes: +6844 Location: New York, NY
Aircraft: Debonair C33A
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Username Protected wrote: Anyone got the details on those 5 losses? I don't know how they got 5, I count 4 hull losses of various causes. 8/13/15 - Pilot incapacitation, overflew California to the Pacific Ocean. 1 fatal. (date unknown) Fuel contamination, off-airport landing. No fatals. 5/15/17 - Windshield broke out, cause yet unknown. Gear up landing, no fatals. 7/17/2017 - Stall/spin in pattern after electrical failure, 2 fatals. That's over $4 million in payouts, far exceeding premiums during that time.
OK, so aside from the windshield issue, the others are all pilot fault?
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Post subject: Re: Lancair ceasing operations Posted: 26 Oct 2017, 22:18 |
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Joined: 08/14/13 Posts: 6058 Post Likes: +4637
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Username Protected wrote: OK, so aside from the windshield issue, the others are all pilot fault?
I haven’t heard favorable commentary on the maintenance and build quality of the airplane that suffered the windshield failure, for what it’s worth
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Post subject: Re: Lancair ceasing operations Posted: 27 Oct 2017, 12:43 |
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Joined: 04/06/11 Posts: 7895 Post Likes: +3908
Aircraft: Warbirds
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Username Protected wrote: OK, so aside from the windshield issue, the others are all pilot fault? This one might be hard to find the cause, Mechanical, Procedural or Medical?- 8/13/15 - Pilot incapacitation, overflew California to the Pacific Ocean. 1 fatal.
_________________ Be careful what you ask for, your mechanic wants to sleep at night.
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Post subject: Re: Lancair ceasing operations Posted: 27 Oct 2017, 21:26 |
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Joined: 12/10/07 Posts: 7975 Post Likes: +6844 Location: New York, NY
Aircraft: Debonair C33A
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Username Protected wrote: This one might be hard to find the cause, Mechanical, Procedural or Medical?- 8/13/15 - Pilot incapacitation, overflew California to the Pacific Ocean. 1 fatal. Right, but even if we assume depressurization, it's still pilot's fault for not properly handling the problem.
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Post subject: Re: Evolution Aircraft ceasing operation Posted: 27 Oct 2017, 21:28 |
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Joined: 12/10/07 Posts: 7975 Post Likes: +6844 Location: New York, NY
Aircraft: Debonair C33A
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Username Protected wrote: As I read the article, it wasn't that pilot/owner airframe insurance wasn't available but that business insurance wasn't available to evolution. Though with a 5% fleet loss rate over 2 years, either could be true. So let me get that straight, they couldn't get insurance so they just folded? That seems like a crazy reason.
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Post subject: Re: Lancair ceasing operations Posted: 27 Oct 2017, 21:57 |
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Joined: 02/11/09 Posts: 1350 Post Likes: +457 Location: Tucson, AZ (57AZ)
Aircraft: 1960 Bonanza M35
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Username Protected wrote: 5/15/17 - Windshield broke out, cause yet unknown. Gear up landing, no fatals. This airplane was based at my airport (KAVQ) and just today I made a deal to sublet his hangar as I need a second one for at least a few months. Had a nice chat with him. https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/Repor ... m&IType=LAWhat this report doesn't say is the pilot (Josh) also lost the engine so essentially he dead sticked it in from 25,000 ft. Impressive as hell.
_________________ Ken Reed 57AZ
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Post subject: Re: Lancair ceasing operations Posted: 27 Oct 2017, 23:36 |
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Joined: 11/22/12 Posts: 2572 Post Likes: +2330 Company: Retired Location: Lynnwood, WA (KPAE)
Aircraft: 1993 Bonanza A36TN
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Username Protected wrote: This one might be hard to find the cause, Mechanical, Procedural or Medical?- 8/13/15 - Pilot incapacitation, overflew California to the Pacific Ocean. 1 fatal. Right, but even if we assume depressurization, it's still pilot's fault for not properly handling the problem. What if he had a heart attack? Indications that it was not depressurization. The scrambled fighter pilot saw him slumped over but noted no fogging or icing of the windows.
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Post subject: Re: Lancair ceasing operations Posted: 27 Oct 2017, 23:45 |
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Joined: 08/14/13 Posts: 6058 Post Likes: +4637
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Username Protected wrote: Right, but even if we assume depressurization, it's still pilot's fault for not properly handling the problem.
What if he had a heart attack? Indications that it was not depressurization. The scrambled fighter pilot saw him slumped over but noted no fogging or icing of the windows.
Then he went out like a champ
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Post subject: Re: Lancair ceasing operations Posted: 28 Oct 2017, 06:50 |
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Joined: 08/24/13 Posts: 8409 Post Likes: +3662 Company: Aviation Tools / CCX Location: KSMQ New Jersey
Aircraft: TBM700C2
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Username Protected wrote: 5/15/17 - Windshield broke out, cause yet unknown. Gear up landing, no fatals. This airplane was based at my airport (KAVQ) and just today I made a deal to sublet his hangar as I need a second one for at least a few months. Had a nice chat with him. https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/Repor ... m&IType=LAWhat this report doesn't say is the pilot (Josh) also lost the engine so essentially he dead sticked it in from 25,000 ft. Impressive as hell.
Wow. Did he say why he lost power? Is this a FADEC PT-6?
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Post subject: Re: Lancair ceasing operations Posted: 28 Oct 2017, 13:02 |
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Joined: 11/22/12 Posts: 2572 Post Likes: +2330 Company: Retired Location: Lynnwood, WA (KPAE)
Aircraft: 1993 Bonanza A36TN
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Username Protected wrote: I haven’t heard favorable commentary on the maintenance and build quality of the airplane that suffered the windshield failure, for what it’s worth I hadn't heard that but it doesn't matter. The windshield is bonded in at the factory before the customer ever arrives, the builder has nothing to do with it. Nor would maintenance, especially as this plane was barely a year old.
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