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 Post subject: Re: Which LSA for primary flight training ?
PostPosted: 07 Oct 2017, 07:11 
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Joined: 08/12/08
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Location: Charleston, SC
Aircraft: Big Jet-Little Prop
I taught a transition student (former 707 FE, little/no small airplane time) and a primary student in a CTLS some time back. It was a neat airplane but control harmony was poor and it had some peculiar habits. The aircraft appeared with a tail strike one morning. The "students" pointed the finger at each other...and me (it lived in the back of my box hangar).

CTLS is not the worst primary trainer (Pitts would be worse) but not ideal. The Champ would be my pick of those mentioned in your post...


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 Post subject: Re: Which LSA for primary flight training ?
PostPosted: 07 Oct 2017, 18:46 
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Username Protected wrote:
Don't forget, if you wish this aircraft to also be used for private pilot students, it will need lights for the night flying requirement, and at least basic gyros for the 3 hours of instrument training. Kind of rules out the Champ, at least the original ones.


I am glad you brought up the instrument training. That is something I would want all the young newbie pilots to have, regardless. Guess I should make a six-pack or something equivalent a nominal requirement. That does rule out a Champ unless I'm willing to retrofit it with gyros.

John


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 Post subject: Re: Which LSA for primary flight training ?
PostPosted: 07 Oct 2017, 18:51 
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Username Protected wrote:
How about a Bristell?


Looks like an interesting aircraft! I was not aware of it until now. Thanks.
John


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 Post subject: Re: Which LSA for primary flight training ?
PostPosted: 09 Oct 2017, 19:50 
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Joined: 02/17/17
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Location: 18AZ Carefree, Arizona
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Sunrise Aviation @ KSNA has 4 Evectar SportsStars they are using for P/P. I think they have had good luck with them. They have a Rotax, and are a sporty looking, low wing, mostly aluminum (bonded) side by side.


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 Post subject: Re: Which LSA for primary flight training ?
PostPosted: 09 Oct 2017, 20:53 
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Location: Peachtree City GA / Stoke-On-Trent UK
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Username Protected wrote:
Don't forget, if you wish this aircraft to also be used for private pilot students, it will need lights for the night flying requirement, and at least basic gyros for the 3 hours of instrument training. Kind of rules out the Champ, at least the original ones.


I am glad you brought up the instrument training. That is something I would want all the young newbie pilots to have, regardless. Guess I should make a six-pack or something equivalent a nominal requirement. That does rule out a Champ unless I'm willing to retrofit it with gyros.

John

Put them in a rented span can for the instrument and radio work. It’s hardly worth owning a plane just for those requirements.

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 Post subject: Re: Which LSA for primary flight training ?
PostPosted: 10 Oct 2017, 01:12 
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Username Protected wrote:
Put them in a rented span can for the instrument and radio work. It’s hardly worth owning a plane just for those requirements.


Good thought. There are no aircraft for rent where we live, but we coukd travel to get to one.

John


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 Post subject: Re: Which LSA for primary flight training ?
PostPosted: 10 Oct 2017, 01:15 
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Username Protected wrote:
Sunrise Aviation @ KSNA has 4 Evectar SportsStars they are using for P/P. I think they have had good luck with them. They have a Rotax, and are a sporty looking, low wing, mostly aluminum (bonded) side by side.


Also an interesting aircraft. Thanks!

John


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 Post subject: Re: Which LSA for primary flight training ?
PostPosted: 10 Oct 2017, 03:55 
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Look at RV-12 performance:

-Useful load with full fuel usually well over 400 lbs - so instructor and student can fly with full fuel - many LSA's have significant useful load challenges. Typical RV-12 has 430 lbs or more useful load with full fuel.
- Takeoff distance 700 feet
- Landing distance 535 feet
- Climb rate 900 FPM (usually beats this easily)
- Cruise speed easy 118-120 Kts

The "intangibles" are incredibly nice handling and visibility. One great advantage for students is the "feel" - the airplane always communicates clearly and directly to the pilot.

I'm biased having owned one but I don't think you can beat it as a trainer or personal airplane in the SLSA realm. Some others (Bristel et al) are "nicer/fancier" but many of these are heavier than the -12 (be sure to check actual empty weight vs advertised - RV12s usually around 760 lbs empty).

Potential downsides (true of most LSA's): no carb heat or mixture to learn about, RPMs about double what you'll see in Lycoming/Continental powered aircraft, all are glass cockpit (can be good or bad) with no true IFR capability. Virtually all LSA's require great care in landing and taxi techniques due to relatively light duty nosewheels / front landing gear, RV-12 is no exception. RV-12's have one SB in place for cracked nosewheel forks - there is a replacement available. A few other SB's most of which have been addressed by now. All are published on the Vans' website. (another RV-12 advantage: Parts generally very reasonably priced and readily available)

And - you can buy one with low hours, excellent build quality, very modern avionics for 60-90K easily.

There are a few flight schools with RV-12 SLSA's as trainers (one in Maryland, one in Wisconsin, one in Oregon last time I looked).


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 Post subject: Re: Which LSA for primary flight training ?
PostPosted: 10 Oct 2017, 10:43 
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Username Protected wrote:
Look at RV-12 performance:

-Useful load with full fuel usually well over 400 lbs - so instructor and student can fly with full fuel - many LSA's have significant useful load challenges. Typical RV-12 has 430 lbs or more useful load with full fuel.
- Takeoff distance 700 feet
- Landing distance 535 feet
- Climb rate 900 FPM (usually beats this easily)
- Cruise speed easy 118-120 Kts

The "intangibles" are incredibly nice handling and visibility. One great advantage for students is the "feel" - the airplane always communicates clearly and directly to the pilot.



Great info! Yes, the RV-12 is very attractive.

I am very hesitant to seriously consider purchasing one that was not factory built. Having built many things myself, I believe it starts being completely correct about the time you have personally completed the fourth or fifth one.

Your thoughts?

Thanks,
John


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 Post subject: Re: Which LSA for primary flight training ?
PostPosted: 10 Oct 2017, 10:45 
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John, the vans kit is easy to build and the workmanship is not that hard to inspect. After you cot up a few factory-built planes for scrap you see enough stupid assembly tricks that you start to put a lot less weight on "factory build quality"


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 Post subject: Re: Which LSA for primary flight training ?
PostPosted: 10 Oct 2017, 11:22 
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Username Protected wrote:
John, the vans kit is easy to build and the workmanship is not that hard to inspect. After you cot up a few factory-built planes for scrap you see enough stupid assembly tricks that you start to put a lot less weight on "factory build quality"

One of the older gents in my last EAA chapter liked the phrase "custom-built" if he was talking with any news media about experimental amateur built airplanes. He'd put a lot of thought into some talking points about the builder putting in extra care and attention into a machine from which his personal safety would directly depend on that extra care...


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 Post subject: Re: Which LSA for primary flight training ?
PostPosted: 10 Oct 2017, 12:43 
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Username Protected wrote:
I am very hesitant to seriously consider purchasing one that was not factory built.


I believe only factory built a/c qualify as S-LSA. Others are E-LSA.

Only the S ones can be rented. I suppose you could structure an E plane as a club with the students owning part of it.


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 Post subject: Re: Which LSA for primary flight training ?
PostPosted: 10 Oct 2017, 14:22 
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Username Protected wrote:
I am very hesitant to seriously consider purchasing one that was not factory built.


I believe only factory built a/c qualify as S-LSA. Others are E-LSA.

Only the S ones can be rented. I suppose you could structure an E plane as a club with the students owning part of it.


Charles is correct.
Look for a factory built S-LSA if you plan to rent it.

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 Post subject: Re: Which LSA for primary flight training ?
PostPosted: 10 Oct 2017, 15:04 
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Username Protected wrote:

I believe only factory built a/c qualify as S-LSA. Others are E-LSA.

Only the S ones can be rented. I suppose you could structure an E plane as a club with the students owning part of it.


Charles is correct.
Look for a factory built S-LSA if you plan to rent it.


Well, that's very good to know. Not sure I'd ever want to rent it, but on the other hand that would be a nice option to have in the far distant future... who knows.

I've seen a few dumb things from factory-built airplanes myself. I've just also seen so many people fooling around in aviation who have no business at all in such a high-stakes endeavor. Those are the one's whose handiwork I would worry about.

On the other hand, I'm sure 90% of the experimentals are probably just fine. The trouble in my mind would be understanding how to detect the 10% that are not before getting into one of them.

John

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 Post subject: Re: Which LSA for primary flight training ?
PostPosted: 10 Oct 2017, 15:08 
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Location: Peachtree City GA / Stoke-On-Trent UK
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Username Protected wrote:
I've seen a few dumb things from factory-built airplanes myself. I've just also seen so many people fooling around in aviation who have no business at all in such a high-stakes endeavor. Those are the one's whose handiwork I would worry about.

On the other hand, I'm sure 90% of the experimentals are probably just fine. The trouble in my mind would be understanding how to detect the 10% that are not before getting into one of them.

John

something else to wonder about, unless you buy new, is decades of maintenance by who knows who on the factory built planes. I just don't see how the fact that an airplane is homebuilt really comes into play, it's a distinction that is lost among lots of other variables


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