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 Post subject: Re: Which LSA for primary flight training ?
PostPosted: 10 Oct 2017, 15:18 
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John, the vans kit is easy to build and the workmanship is not that hard to inspect. After you cot up a few factory-built planes for scrap you see enough stupid assembly tricks that you start to put a lot less weight on "factory build quality"

One of the older gents in my last EAA chapter liked the phrase "custom-built" if he was talking with any news media about experimental amateur built airplanes. He'd put a lot of thought into some talking points about the builder putting in extra care and attention into a machine from which his personal safety would directly depend on that extra care...



I propose a name change to the "Bespoke Aircraft Association."
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 Post subject: Re: Which LSA for primary flight training ?
PostPosted: 10 Oct 2017, 17:25 
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Get a good pre-buy, but the RV-12 is one airplane where workmanship is less critical than other kit aircraft - because a huge amount of the construction is done using blind rivets. This reduces the risk of mistakes significantly. In addition, the RV-12 is one of two Van's kits where not only are all parts pre-punched but all rivet holes are drilled to size, reducing the risk of badly drilled holes.

The S-LSA's are very well built, but many of those built by individuals are just as good. S-LSA's can be bought with good panel (most have Dynon Skyview - all have autopilots) from around $90K. There are just fewer of them on the market.

The critical piece of advice is GET A GOOD PRE-BUY from someone who knows Van's aircraft. Depending on where you and airplane are I might be able to make a recommendation.

One more advantage to RV-12. Van's aircraft has one of the best online communities anywhere -Vans Airforce. Check out the forums including RV-12 - literally almost instant response to any questions you may have, and most have already been answered on the forum.


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 Post subject: Re: Which LSA for primary flight training ?
PostPosted: 10 Oct 2017, 18:17 
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Put them in a rented span can for the instrument and radio work. It’s hardly worth owning a plane just for those requirements.


Good thought. There are no aircraft for rent where we live, but we coukd travel to get to one.

John


And for those tasks during the PPL checkride. I've had students do that, but less than an ideal situation, IMHO.

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 Post subject: Re: Which LSA for primary flight training ?
PostPosted: 11 Oct 2017, 23:19 
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I too considered expiramentals as an option for primary flight instruction however the LIABILITY scared the crap out of me... remember, these students will be flying your airplane quite a bit by themselves and removing yourself as the owner / operator of the expiramental is key. So, as noted earlier, I’d opt for something factory made...


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 Post subject: Re: Which LSA for primary flight training ?
PostPosted: 12 Oct 2017, 00:11 
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Take a look at the SkyReach Bushcat. http://www.bushcatusa.com

It’s a nice, sturdy airframe that’s easy and fun to fly. I believe that several U.S. flight schools are using the tricycle gear variety for basic training. Compare its cost to other S-LSA competitors.


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 Post subject: Re: Which LSA for primary flight training ?
PostPosted: 19 Oct 2017, 14:53 
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Username Protected wrote:
Take a look at the SkyReach Bushcat. http://www.bushcatusa.com

It’s a nice, sturdy airframe that’s easy and fun to fly. I believe that several U.S. flight schools are using the tricycle gear variety for basic training. Compare its cost to other S-LSA competitors.


Looks interesting. You have one, right? What do you think of its flying characteristics and maintainability? How long have you had it and how many hours have you flown?

Do you know why it sells new for $70K when other similar aircraft sell new for $100K+ ?

Is there an owner's interest group?

Thanks,
John


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 Post subject: Re: Which LSA for primary flight training ?
PostPosted: 20 Oct 2017, 10:15 
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Username Protected wrote:
Is there an owner's interest group?

Unfortunately, no. While there are hundreds of the airplanes worldwide, there are only about 25 so far in the U.S. Not enough critical mass for a type club (although, I'm working on the manufacturer and distributor whenever I see them at Sun-n-Fun and Oshkosh).

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 Post subject: Re: Which LSA for primary flight training ?
PostPosted: 23 Oct 2017, 14:05 
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I've looked online at a Flight Designs CTLS, a Van's RV-12, a Cessna SkyCatcher, and a Ran's S-6S or S-7LS. I think a newer tricycle gear airplane is probably best, but have also considered a Luscombe, Champ or Taylorcraft.


I know of 3 successful schools that operate a fleet of LSAs in primary training, and has been for several years.

Michael Sczepansky's New Mexico Sport Aviation uses Remos GX (added a Tecnam Sierra).
Dr. Paul Shuch's AvSport operates Evektor SportStar in Pennsylvania.
Santa Cruz club in California is associated with the local Tecnam sales center and used to run a P92 that I flew. They later switched to Sierra, same as in Michael's case.

In all cases, the school trains to both Sport and Private curricula. Michael even graduated a Recreational pilot once. This allows for business case to close better. But you have to know local DPEs for all ratings, and you have to have your LSAs equipped properly.

I'm most familiar with the NMSA and their Remos GX airplanes. I found that the talk about the need of "rugged" airplanes for primary training is exaggerated. The GX holds up to training with no issues. Yes, it's essential to instruct your students not to land on the nosewheel, but then remember that doing that in a Cherokee is going to end badly too.

I would stay away from SkyCatcher, because of its limited useful load and small internal dimensions, unless you know for sure that your instructors and students will be petite. The rest of your candidates raise no objections. Well, S-7 is a tailwheel airplane. Also, finding an S-LSA version of it may be challenging. Remember that you must obtain a Letter of Deviation (LODA) from the local FAA office in order to instruct in E-LSA.


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 Post subject: Re: Which LSA for primary flight training ?
PostPosted: 02 Nov 2017, 23:39 
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One that I really like is the Sport Cruiser. US Sport Aircraft (KADS - Addison, TX - www.ussportaircraft.com) is a dealer for them, and uses them in their flight training, and has some creative ways to partner on one. When I got back into flying after a 30-year hiatus, I flew with them, and was highly impressed with the quality, performance, and handling of the Sport Cruiser. They are pricey, but worth it! Right now, there is a nice 2007 listed on their site for $89K, with only 450 hours on it. That one was NOT used as a trainer, either.

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 Post subject: Re: Which LSA for primary flight training ?
PostPosted: 03 Nov 2017, 13:24 
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Remember that you must obtain a Letter of Deviation (LODA) from the local FAA office in order to instruct in E-LSA.

Not familiar with that reg. Which FAR is that?

George

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 Post subject: Re: Which LSA for primary flight training ?
PostPosted: 06 Nov 2017, 01:23 
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Remember that you must obtain a Letter of Deviation (LODA) from the local FAA office in order to instruct in E-LSA.


Not familiar with that reg. Which FAR is that?


I should have qualified that I meant to instruct in exchange for money. Of course you're free to provide instruction to owners of E-LSA as long as you're not compensated.

To answer your specific question, the flight instruction for hire is explicitly allowed in S-LSA by 91.327(a)(2) and disallowed for all experimentals, including E-LSA, by 91.319(a)(2). However, the same regulation allows LoDA, see 91.319(h).

This split between S-LSA and E-LSA was an explicit intent of the LSA rule, per the FAA final rule statement, "The rule allows a special light-sport aircraft owner to accept compensation for the use of the aircraft for flight training or towing a glider or unpowered ultralight vehicle."

P.S. The following article may be useful
http://midwestflyer.com/?p=1753

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 Post subject: Re: Which LSA for primary flight training ?
PostPosted: 06 Nov 2017, 13:03 
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Username Protected wrote:
One that I really like is the Sport Cruiser.


SportCruiser is a lovely airplane, but it has a hard limit on the pilot height. You're cutting away a percentage of your customer base if your school's fleet does not have an alternative. Evektor has a much taller canopy (or at least it had in the Sport and SportMax versions, before Harmony).

P.S. Same happens with LSAs that have low maximum pilot weight, such as Fk9.


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 Post subject: Re: Which LSA for primary flight training ?
PostPosted: 06 Nov 2017, 14:58 
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Username Protected wrote:

To answer your specific question, the flight instruction for hire is explicitly allowed in S-LSA by 91.327(a)(2) and disallowed for all experimentals, including E-LSA, by 91.319(a)(2). However, the same regulation allows LoDA, see 91.319(h).

Thanks for the reference.

George

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 Post subject: Re: Which LSA for primary flight training ?
PostPosted: 18 Dec 2017, 15:55 
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Username Protected wrote:
One that I really like is the Sport Cruiser.


SportCruiser is a lovely airplane, but it has a hard limit on the pilot height. You're cutting away a percentage of your customer base if your school's fleet does not have an alternative. Evektor has a much taller canopy (or at least it had in the Sport and SportMax versions, before Harmony).

P.S. Same happens with LSAs that have low maximum pilot weight, such as Fk9.

FWIT, my 6'5" son flew with me, and had no headroom issues. But I realize that people wear their height differently...
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 Post subject: Re: Which LSA for primary flight training ?
PostPosted: 19 Dec 2017, 17:19 
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Looks like a partnership arrangement would work and allow for flight instruction with compensation.

3-292 FLIGHT TRAINING IN EXPERIMENTAL AIRCRAFT.

A. Use of Experimental Aircraft for Flight Training. Persons may receive, and provide compensation for, flight training in an aircraft holding an experimental certificate issued for any of the purposes specified in § 21.191. Other than the person receiving flight training, the operation must not involve the carriage of persons or property for compensation or hire or be prohibited by the aircraft’s operating limitations.

B. Flight Instructors. Flight instructors may receive compensation for providing flight training in an experimental aircraft, but may not receive compensation for the use of the aircraft in which they provide that flight training unless in accordance with a LODA issued under § 91.319(h) and as described in paragraph 3-293. An experimental aircraft owner may not rent an experimental LSA to a person for the purpose of conducting solo flight.

C. Experimental Aircraft Owners. Owners of experimental aircraft may receive, and provide compensation for, flight training received in their aircraft. An owner of an experimental aircraft may not receive compensation for the use of their aircraft to provide flight training except in accordance with a LODA issued under § 91.319(h) and described in paragraph 3-293. An owner of an experimental LSA may not rent the experimental LSA to a person for the purpose of conducting solo flights.

D. Flight in Experimental Aircraft. The FAA does not require flight instructors, pilot examiners, and aviation safety inspectors (ASI) to fly in experimental aircraft. The decision whether or not to provide flight training or conduct a check in an experimental aircraft is left to the discretion and judgment of the individual.

Full document.
http://fsims.faa.gov/PICDetail.aspx?doc ... ,Ch11,Sec1

Les


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