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 Post subject: Re: Ferrying c t206h Waco Tx to Tracy CA
PostPosted: 26 Sep 2017, 10:55 
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Username Protected wrote:
Alex what MP and RPM please? Also what are your CHTs?
I've never seen 150 TAS LOP.


I'm watching the Cowboys poor performance so I didn't go through all my pictures, but here is a picture with a little less than 14.6 GPH I quoted. I think these are 147 True @ 11K, 31.7MP, 1560 TIT, 380 CHT, 14.2 GPH , -68LOP. It will do right at 150 with a little more fuel and a 1600TIT and about 400CHT.


You're a braver man than I.
How many engine hours do you have?

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 Post subject: Re: Ferrying c t206h Waco Tx to Tracy CA
PostPosted: 26 Sep 2017, 11:10 
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Username Protected wrote:

I'm watching the Cowboys poor performance so I didn't go through all my pictures, but here is a picture with a little less than 14.6 GPH I quoted. I think these are 147 True @ 11K, 31.7MP, 1560 TIT, 380 CHT, 14.2 GPH , -68LOP. It will do right at 150 with a little more fuel and a 1600TIT and about 400CHT.


You're a braver man than I.
How many engine hours do you have?


Brave in what way?

I have run this engine every way imaginable and I would be curious to see any better numbers. It is turbine smooth at those settings with low noise as the prop is only turning 2300. If I were going on a long over water (and I have) these are the exact settings I would use to stretch the fuel. 1,000 hours on the this engine about 1200 on the prior T206H.

Above 18K and certainly above 20K I have to modify my procedure to keep the temps in line in the thinner air, but otherwise it seems to work.

Of course I spend a lot to make sure everything is perfect, prop balanced, mags totally rebuilt every 500, new plugs every 100, etc.

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 Post subject: Re: Ferrying c t206h Waco Tx to Tracy CA
PostPosted: 26 Sep 2017, 14:45 
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Being a new 206 pilot I obviously don't have anywhere near the real world experience that you do Alex, but what would make me nervous are your high CHTs.
My engine monitor alarm is set at 375 which is based on Mike Busch's recommendations. I believe POH redline is 480 so I have a lot of cushion, but cool cylinders supposedly last longer. At least that's what I've been told and what makes sense.
Apparently you've seen otherwise? I'm not arguing...just trying to learn.
Have you had any cylinder issues?
Do you have GAMIs?


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 Post subject: Re: Ferrying c t206h Waco Tx to Tracy CA
PostPosted: 26 Sep 2017, 16:47 
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Username Protected wrote:
Being a new 206 pilot I obviously don't have anywhere near the real world experience that you do Alex, but what would make me nervous are your high CHTs.
My engine monitor alarm is set at 375 which is based on Mike Busch's recommendations. I believe POH redline is 480 so I have a lot of cushion, but cool cylinders supposedly last longer. At least that's what I've been told and what makes sense.
Apparently you've seen otherwise? I'm not arguing...just trying to learn.
Have you had any cylinder issues?
Do you have GAMIs?


375 ROP and you are pushing A LOT of fuel through that engine. The more practical limit is 400CHT/1600 TIT IMO. The harder to control number is CHT ROP, You might occasionally get a blip of 405-410 for a couple of minutes, but I make an adjustment if it stays there. I don't know if Mike's recommendations are specific to the TIO-540-AJ1A, but this variant and the one in the Piper Malibu are going to run hotter under any reasonable fuel burn I don't care what you do. They have sodium valves and other features to handle it and seem to. The only cylinder work I ever did was a result of an exhaust valve AD by Lycoming. I've never had Gamis and all 4 of the 540's I've run in restart Cessnas and all ran LOP with zero mods. In fairness if you look at the picture I posted I could save another .5-1 GPH by going to Gamis and tuning those hotter cylinders more in line with the others. If you are coming from a big bore Continental then those numbers will seem very high, but these motors are just a different animal. Calculate the fuel difference in $ between how you run and what I posted, if the math over 2,000 hours is compelling take the LOP APS class and draw your conclusions. I wouldn't just follow anyone's advice on something this expensive.


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 Post subject: Re: Ferrying c t206h Waco Tx to Tracy CA
PostPosted: 26 Sep 2017, 21:19 
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Location: Philippine Islands
Aircraft: C T206 RP-C1100
Paul I also want to enjoy the sights. First time to fly gen av in the great USA. We plan on stopping over Sedona, Vegas, and some where in the grand canyon area.

Alex, nice numbers you got there!

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 Post subject: Re: Ferrying c t206h Waco Tx to Tracy CA
PostPosted: 26 Sep 2017, 22:23 
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Username Protected wrote:
Being a new 206 pilot I obviously don't have anywhere near the real world experience that you do Alex, but what would make me nervous are your high CHTs.
My engine monitor alarm is set at 375 which is based on Mike Busch's recommendations. I believe POH redline is 480 so I have a lot of cushion, but cool cylinders supposedly last longer. At least that's what I've been told and what makes sense.
Apparently you've seen otherwise? I'm not arguing...just trying to learn.
Have you had any cylinder issues?
Do you have GAMIs?


375 ROP and you are pushing A LOT of fuel through that engine. The more practical limit is 400CHT/1600 TIT IMO. The harder to control number is CHT ROP, You might occasionally get a blip of 405-410 for a couple of minutes, but I make an adjustment if it stays there. I don't know if Mike's recommendations are specific to the TIO-540-AJ1A, but this variant and the one in the Piper Malibu are going to run hotter under any reasonable fuel burn I don't care what you do. They have sodium valves and other features to handle it and seem to. The only cylinder work I ever did was a result of an exhaust valve AD by Lycoming. I've never had Gamis and all 4 of the 540's I've run in restart Cessnas and all ran LOP with zero mods. In fairness if you look at the picture I posted I could save another .5-1 GPH by going to Gamis and tuning those hotter cylinders more in line with the others. If you are coming from a big bore Continental then those numbers will seem very high, but these motors are just a different animal. Calculate the fuel difference in $ between how you run and what I posted, if the math over 2,000 hours is compelling take the LOP APS class and draw your conclusions. I wouldn't just follow anyone's advice on something this expensive.


Alex thanks for the detailed response! I'd love some advice but I'll PM you with my questions so as not to further hijack the thread.
Safe flight Mano!!

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 Post subject: Re: Ferrying c t206h Waco Tx to Tracy CA
PostPosted: 27 Sep 2017, 00:06 
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Scott you're not hijacking the thread, It would be good to learn more if Alex wants to share...
Thanks again Alex.

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 Post subject: Re: Ferrying c t206h Waco Tx to Tracy CA
PostPosted: 27 Sep 2017, 00:57 
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I always left the cowl flaps open a notch or two whenever cruising at O2 altitudes in the T206H and had CHTs around 400-420ish. I was spoiled and pretty much every one I flew was in the break-in period so I was running 75% power; as stated above the CHTs that'd cause issues with a Continental are less of an issue with this Lycoming installation. In my experience it was a bulletproof engine. I never ran it LOP--since I was working for the manufacturer we always did everything by the book and ran 75 ROP.


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 Post subject: Re: Ferrying c t206h Waco Tx to Tracy CA
PostPosted: 27 Sep 2017, 09:33 
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Username Protected wrote:
Scott you're not hijacking the thread, It would be good to learn more if Alex wants to share...
Thanks again Alex.


Ok then!
Alex and David are you both saying that CHTs around 400 are no big deal with these Lycomings?
Alex, do you increase only RPMs then for cruise climb and do you leave cowl flaps open at all?
Have you had any turbo problems and do I understand that you change your spark plugs every 100 hours?
Thanks both for your feedback. This may drastically change the way I fly my plane.


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 Post subject: Re: Ferrying c t206h Waco Tx to Tracy CA
PostPosted: 27 Sep 2017, 10:02 
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This doesn’t have numbers on it but shows approximately where CHTs would be with cowl flaps closed cruising around 9,500’. I never heard of any of our demo aircraft having any turbocharger issues.


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 Post subject: Re: Ferrying c t206h Waco Tx to Tracy CA
PostPosted: 27 Sep 2017, 10:27 
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Username Protected wrote:
Scott you're not hijacking the thread, It would be good to learn more if Alex wants to share...
Thanks again Alex.


Ok then!
Alex and David are you both saying that CHTs around 400 are no big deal with these Lycomings?
Alex, do you increase only RPMs then for cruise climb and do you leave cowl flaps open at all?
Have you had any turbo problems and do I understand that you change your spark plugs every 100 hours?
Thanks both for your feedback. This may drastically change the way I fly my plane.


I've got some other things going this A.M. but I'll throw in a quick answer.

I fly a lot of IFR so slow LOP climbs usually mean an ATC call "what are you doing?" kind of thing. My cruise climb habit is just a ~100 ROP climb at about 36-38" yielding about 500-600 FPM even heavy and that's what ATC expects from a piston single. I leave the prop alone just because I don't want to readjust it (lazy pilot) or I would go up a little faster. I always open a few notches of cowl for the climb. In cruise the cowl flaps are closed (for speed) in my picture. Like David said at higher altitudes (especially Class A airspace) I do have to use a notch or two of cowl flaps in cruise to keep the engine cool. BTW- I showed using the lean assist, but that is just for pictures so people understand where I am at. I just adjust the motor by experience because it is a lot quicker and easier once you know where it wants to be, just put it there.

On the prop, the reason I cruise at 2300 is because that is the max torque (not horsepower) that the engine produces. Max torque in cruise is the most efficient, even if you give up a few knots of speed.

I have never had a turbo or exhaust problem of any kind. Look at any turbo engine 1600TIT is pretty standard operating procedure.

I change the plugs for a couple of reasons. Most people don't push these airplanes very hard, they fly at low altitude ROP. When you start getting up above 18K the ignition system is really tested. In addition to good magnetos I want a nice tight spark plug gap. Since they are pulled for annual anyway, it is just easier to replace (order online as cheap as you can prior to annual) them vs. put the old ones back in and then have a possible repair with the redundant labor expense during the next year. Sounds extreme, but when you are at 20K' over 10K' of icy clouds you just don't want any problems. If you fly low and ROP you don't need to do this.

Bottom line IMO is that this is a 145-150 knot airplane below the O2 levels. Going faster just hammers the fuel for very little increase in speed. ROP is fine, I flew them that way during the warranty period and like David no problems. My LOP logic is that a 3-4 GPH spread between ROP and LOP for the same speed is this: $5 a gallon X 4 GPH X 2,000 Hours = saves $40,000 to go the same distance. That will cover a good chunk of the new engine cost and it has proven much easier to control CHT's LOP vs. always on the edge of limits ROP.

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 Post subject: Re: Ferrying c t206h Waco Tx to Tracy CA
PostPosted: 27 Sep 2017, 13:44 
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Sorry to bug but a couple more:

So do you consider your average cruise settings below O2 levels as 31/2300 and 14.5 gph? I noticed David was at 2390.
What do you see for CHTs on average then?
Are you saying max torque occurs at 2300 and only horsepower increases from there?
And lastly, would you be willing to share your average mission profile and why you chose a T206? I see your at Addison and I'm at Denton and there sure aren't very many 206s around this neck of the woods.
I've not been able to find any experienced 206 operators so thanks a bunch for the feedback. Very helpful!
I like your LOP logic and when I get my plane back from being repaired, hopefully in December, I plan to make use of your numbers.


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 Post subject: Re: Ferrying c t206h Waco Tx to Tracy CA
PostPosted: 27 Sep 2017, 14:40 
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Username Protected wrote:
Sorry to bug but a couple more:

So do you consider your average cruise settings below O2 levels as 31/2300 and 14.5 gph? I noticed David was at 2390.
What do you see for CHTs on average then?
Are you saying max torque occurs at 2300 and only horsepower increases from there?
And lastly, would you be willing to share your average mission profile and why you chose a T206? I see your at Addison and I'm at Denton and there sure aren't very many 206s around this neck of the woods.
I've not been able to find any experienced 206 operators so thanks a bunch for the feedback. Very helpful!
I like your LOP logic and when I get my plane back from being repaired, hopefully in December, I plan to make use of your numbers.


Yes, those settings are what I go to by default, with perhaps a minor adjustment if conditions warrant.

I used to cruise at 2400 ROP too because that is the book recommended. My friend is an engine performance engineer for Lycoming and he gave me the torque/horsepower curves for that engine and recommended 2300. It has worked great and the nicest thing is the cabin is noticeably quieter (I have dogs with me some of the time and I worry about their ears). To answer your question directly, above 2300RPM, HP still goes up torque goes down slightly.

My CHT LOP is between 370-400 depending on how lean I am, based on how hard I want to run. ROP is always 400 and typically around 28" because I keep adding fuel until it is. That and going below 400 really takes a lot more, it doesn't seem linear.

For discussion it would help to have your settings and fuel flow you are using to get your CHT numbers?

The reason I choose a T206H was to go between Dallas and Taos, NM (plus all of the southern rockies) all year round and carrying a lot of people/stuff. This means a lot of high altitude flying to top weather, a lot of very high DA takeoffs (ie. 12K in summer) at gross, snow and ice covered runways, fighting strong turbulence and downdrafts, etc. Prior I was in a club based at Addison and we had three Bonanza F33A's, which I also love, especially for missions around Dallas because they were so nimble and fast.

Best answer is a plane that can carry this plus two adults and fly this way...


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 Post subject: Re: Ferrying c t206h Waco Tx to Tracy CA
PostPosted: 27 Sep 2017, 17:23 
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Alex your third row looks like mine! I fly with the wife, two kids, two dogs and all the crap they need. Even flew down to New Braunfels and picked up three goats! Great plane!
For my settings: I'm typically 10-13k ft, I'm 147 true at 27"/2350 and 18 gph w my hottest cylinder at about 350 for ROP. At LOP I'm at the same settings but 137 true and 13.5 gph. Again CHTs never exceed 350.
I've been told (not by any experienced t206h drivers) to avoid temps in excess of 350 and NEVER exceed 400.


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 Post subject: Re: Ferrying c t206h Waco Tx to Tracy CA
PostPosted: 27 Sep 2017, 18:27 
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Username Protected wrote:
Alex your third row looks like mine! I fly with the wife, two kids, two dogs and all the crap they need. Even flew down to New Braunfels and picked up three goats! Great plane!
For my settings: I'm typically 10-13k ft, I'm 147 true at 27"/2350 and 18 gph w my hottest cylinder at about 350 for ROP. At LOP I'm at the same settings but 137 true and 13.5 gph. Again CHTs never exceed 350.
I've been told (not by any experienced t206h drivers) to avoid temps in excess of 350 and NEVER exceed 400.


Three goats! HA. Nice. I'm not that brave!!!!

You'll have to make a decision on your CHT's. You might give Lycoming a call and discuss it, I did and it seemed they have a guy specifically to answer that question. I like your LOP numbers, hard to argue they are anything but super gentle on the motor.

If you're happy with those numbers then why not just keep on truckin 13.5 is good?


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