In our quest to find the next right aircraft, my father and I have asked for quotes from different insurance agencies regarding a 421C. In doing so, the current insurer said we would need recurrent SimCom training every year for a 421. Is this typical? Also what is typical insurance rate in this type aircraft? We will say hull value around $350 AMUs. He would be the primary pilot under the policy and he has around 800 flight hours and is IFR rated. That time is quickly approaching 1000 hours. No multi time as of yet. Any help from fellow BT brothers would be appreciated!

How old is your father?

We also went from high performance singles straight to the 421 with very little multi time. Initial training will be required for sure. We used Dan Moore, Watauga Flight Service, and did the initial in our plane. The 2nd year we went to RTC in IL for recurrent and then used Dan again in the 3rd year. Haven't been to SimCom.
Interestingly, insurance did not require recurrent training the last two years, but offered a better rate if we did. I definitely wouldn't want to go more than 12 months without recurrent training though, 6 would be better.

Insurance cost;
year 1- $11,280 for $2m/$250k
year 2- $10,430 for $3m/$300k
year 3- $8,600 for $2m smooth
I believe those are all based on $400k hull.
We'll keep increasing the limits as they'll allow.

Thatcher,

I had a 414a for several years and was required to do simcom. The recurrent training at Simcom is about half of the initial cost. I found it worthwhile FWIW.

Pretty typical. They will all say annual recurrent with an approved program, some will have other training options approved, but just a BFR with a local CFI won't cut it.



First year, figure something like 4% of hull value, and high limits of liability may not be available to you. Subsequent years, it will eventually drop to roughly 2% of hull value, a bit more with higher limits of liability as they become avaiable.

Age of pilot is a factor. Someone else asked how old your father is, and it could be a factor in both cost and availability depending on the answer.

I'd be very interested to hear your thoughts comparing training methods after you visit Simcom.

Congrats on the 421. Have you guys found an airframe? If not, PM me.

Even if the Insurance did not require it, it's still a must in my opinion (Initial and annual recurrent). In fact I am flying out this afternoon to AZ for my third recurrent.

Doing the various emergency scenarios in the Simulator has immense value.

Enjoy the 421, I have about 400 hours in mine and love it!

Hilgard

BT buddies referred me to Alejandro Galioto to obtain quotes. He got me several options and I believe I picked a slightly more expensive option that required recurrent every two years instead of every year.

First year was about $12k for $400k hull with comparable flight experience. Second year dropped to about $10k.

Alejandro also gave me a list of approved training facilities. Some, like SimCom, require you go to them and provide simulator training. Others send an instructor to you and train in your aircraft. I went this route because I wanted to be trained in the actual airplane I would be flying, and then followed up with sim training later for more in-depth experience with emergency procedures.

Not quite the same plane, but I understand a friend with a 414 got his underwriter to approve just an IPC with a local CFI as his "recurrent" training. He's a pretty experienced muti-engine pilot, though, with something more than 1,000 hrs of multi engine time.

Obviously I'm not very experienced, but so far I really like doing every other year in the airplane and every other year in a sim.

RTC's program and facilities leave a lot to be desired, but the ability to do things in the sim that you wouldn't do in the plane was excellent.

One advantage of using Dan over RTC is his in depth knowledge and detailed explanation of every system on the airplane. And not just any airplane but your specific airplane. Secondly, the muscle memory learned is a lot more valuable when you're doing the emergencies in the plane you always fly.

I wouldn't rate one method over the other, in my opinion they're equal and the combination of both is best.

I suspect Simcom will be much better than RTC.

Thank you all for the responses. In regards to age, my father is 47. I'm still only a 19 year old aspiring to own my own aircraft. I do all of the flying in our Bonanza when we go as I have been flying sims since I was about 5 and real world for about 8-9 years. I'm working as a broker to find the right aircraft along with helping others find theirs

Agree with above - there's a lot to be said for multi training in a sim - many more emergencies can be simulated realistically.

But there's a good ecosystem of insurance approved guys who do approved, type-specific in-airplane training.

Agree that one year in your plane then alternate in a sim is a good plan. I have about 1200 hours in multiple 421B & Cs. I went to SimCom FL in June and was surprised that the sim was not full motion although they planned to have full motion in place soon. They seem to cater to the turbines and jets. I get it, that's where the money is. Regardless, the sim emergency training is good experience especially the multiple failures. Instructor was just ok but you have to drive yourself. Good luck, its a great airplane and it's a complex airplane that can and will surprise you, be ready.

A lot of times in the industry we may colloquially say "Simcom" or "Flight Safety" but really just mean "A pre-approved training course".

Simcom is one and there are others. If you propose something your broker can submit for approval and let you know. With new multi hours, expect to do training every year but you gain more flexibility as you go down the road.

Pretty much any pressurized twin will need some training every year. The type and nature is variable based on various other variables.

Enjoy that nice quiet 421 ride!

Tj