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 Post subject: Re: Half Curious/Serious CSOTBM Question (Q for the TBM folk
PostPosted: 17 Aug 2017, 14:26 
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Joined: 02/03/11
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Location: San Diego, CA
Aircraft: B55, P46T
I have 95 hours on my 2005 MERIDIAN in 3.5 months (1500tt) and currently 0 squawks.
So far it's significantly less to fly than my baron since I would be about 145 hours and 3 oil changes to cover the same ground.
Did not buy the plane to "SAVE" money....that would be silly......but so far so good.

Expect annual and 100 hour check to be under $10k but ready for whatever.

Expecting a $30k annual with HSI at 1800 hrs. Winter 2018

No requirement for the 100 hour check, just being prudent as I am new to turbines and Piper.
Loving flight levels so far.

The plane fits my missions well out here in the west. 90% of my flights are either less than 600 miles or more than 1100 miles.
So basically it's very easy to carry 850lbs and fuel for 600 miles with reserves.
Or 550lbs and 900 miles.
Not getting 1200 miles without a stop anyway so load up the cabin and go!

The best part of turbine flying is the smoothness. My baron, which most considered a smooth flying example, now feels to me like its Trying to shake its self to death.
250 moving parts vs 25


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 Post subject: Re: Half Curious/Serious CSOTBM Question (Q for the TBM folk
PostPosted: 17 Aug 2017, 17:46 
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Joined: 09/11/12
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Location: Chicago, IL (KGYY)
Aircraft: Piper M600
Troy:

I hope you see a $10k annual, but I have yet to do so in my '06 Meridian. I do my annuals at Malibu Aerospace at KANE, which has a reputation for doing great work, but being expensive, but even still.

To give some data points, here are my annual costs for the past 4 years. I have removed everything that was optional or "add on" from these prices -- so no detailing, avionics upgrades, etc. are included. It's all airworthiness/SB/SL stuff.

I use a Mike Busch-style approach to SB/SL compliance: if it it a safety of flight issue or if not complying is penny-wise, but pound foolish, I do them. If not, I defer.

Malibu Aerospace's flat rate for the inspection is $5,200 and their shop rate is $105/hour, as of last year, so you can use that to adjust for scale based on what your shop charges. I've called out any big ticket items in parentheses:

2016: $26.8k (bad boot on one wing accounted for $6900, rest typical)
2015: $25.8k (battery failed cap test, couldn't be reconditioned to meet standard, time to replace. $3.5k)
2014: $20.3k (no stand outs)
2013: $35k (catch up annual, year of purchase -- lots of deferred items from the previous owner)

My recent HSI at Dallas Airmotive, which was unremarkable (no blades replaced etc.), ran $25k, not including the engine R&R.

In short: hope for the best, but I don't think it's possible to run a Meridian of that vintage year after year and expect to spend around $10k/year for mx.


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 Post subject: Re: Half Curious/Serious CSOTBM Question (Q for the TBM folk
PostPosted: 31 Aug 2017, 17:44 
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Joined: 02/03/11
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Location: San Diego, CA
Aircraft: B55, P46T
Thanks for the info Patrick,

Since the catch up annual and most of the time items were done just before my purchase, i expect to be on the light side on year one annual. Probably more in tune with your numbers in year two plus.
The aircraft is exceeding my expectations in every column so far. Even with $20k annuals, that is under $250 per hour in operational costs (fuel plus maintenance/250hrs) which makes me and my accountant happy. Still pretty close Baron costs when you allow for the extra hours flown to go the same distance.
Depreciation, cost of capital and a bank roll for a new engine is a different story of course.


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 Post subject: Re: Half Curious/Serious CSOTBM Question (Q for the TBM folk
PostPosted: 31 Aug 2017, 18:10 
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Joined: 01/28/13
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Location: Indiana
Aircraft: C195, D17S, M20TN
Username Protected wrote:

I have never flown a meridian but 25 to 30 gph? Really? I thought the fuel burn was higher than that. At FL28.0 55gph would true 275 to 280 depending on Temp in the TBM. Is the Meridian significantly better on NM/gal? Maybe I should have bought one. I was happy with the TBM performance but not the King Air maintenance and repair.


Anthony, the Meridian burns 40gph at FL280 at 265-270kts. 50% higher fuel burn equals 60gph. I didn't say the Meridian burn was half of the TBM.

So nearly the same performance for 20gph less and substantially less mx costs. I LOVE the TBM and would probably seriously consider it but I can fit my primary missions to the Meridians performance and the cost delta is significant. If I had to have more range or UL, the TBM would be my next choice. They are both awesome machines with slightly different capabilities.


TBM.
Just to help with numbers my L850 burns 54 at max cruise 27-28,000FT. We can go on up to 30-31 and be below 50gph. TAS is 300-308(different OAT's) at FL280 and Monday it was 308KTS at -29 OAT. I flight plan 60GPH which gives me some cushion. What is your fuel usage on a 3 hour flight? Mine is 172 total. How far did you get and leave an hours reserve? Fltplan has good models for TBM's and jets. Anyone can test out their standard missions and get reasonably accurate numbers.

Looking for an aircraft is the most fun you can have on this earth, almost ;) , and is also a great pass time. Good hunting.
_________________
Chuck
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 Post subject: Re: Half Curious/Serious CSOTBM Question (Q for the TBM folk
PostPosted: 01 Sep 2017, 10:09 
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Looking for an aircraft is the most fun you can have on this earth, almost ;) , and is also a great pass time. Good hunting.


Sometimes I feel like Controller could charge a monthly fee to view the ads and I would end up paying it. No idea why, but looking at airplanes and cars for sale is the best stress reliever I have found.


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 Post subject: Re: Half Curious/Serious CSOTBM Question (Q for the TBM folk
PostPosted: 03 Sep 2017, 09:31 
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Aircraft: UMF3, UBF 2, P180 II
Username Protected wrote:


TBM.
Just to help with numbers my L850 burns 54 at max cruise 27-28,000FT. We can go on up to 30-31 and be below 50gph. TAS is 300-308(different OAT's) at FL280 and Monday it was 308KTS at -29 OAT. I flight plan 60GPH which gives me some cushion. What is your fuel usage on a 3 hour flight? Mine is 172 total. How far did you get and leave an hours reserve? Fltplan has good models for TBM's and jets. Anyone can test out their standard missions and get reasonably accurate numbers.

Looking for an aircraft is the most fun you can have on this earth, almost ;) , and is also a great pass time. Good hunting.


Yesterday at 28,000, -28, 58 gph we were 306. In the winter we'll be about 315. With the separator on and slowed to 275-280 I'll burn in the low 40's. Once you get used to 300+ 275 seems really slow...

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Travel Air B4000, Waco UBF2,UMF3,YMF5, UPF7,YKS 6, Fairchild 24W, Cessna 120
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 Post subject: Re: Half Curious/Serious CSOTBM Question (Q for the TBM folk
PostPosted: 07 Sep 2017, 10:08 
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Joined: 10/11/13
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Location: Raleigh, NC
Aircraft: Malibu,Husky,TBM7C2
It really depends on the mission doesn't it.

I flew Malibus/Mirages for 6 years. Great planes/money.

I bought a TBM C2 because my mission changed. I frequently fly 1000 miles w 5 people. Useful load in my bird is 1100 lbs full fuel.

Big differences I found relevant:

1.TBM is much beefier and closer to military grade. I can fly (I believe much safer) in a different grade of weather because the airframe can handle it.
2. Second, the seats come out in a couple minutes so I can configure the plane from a freight dog to a 6 seater. I use this feature to my advantage on almost every flight. Pilot/copilot seats can sit way back w plenty of leg room.
3. Cruise TAS in my plane is about 295kts at 280 to 310. Fuel burn is 55 to 50 respectively unless it is really hot up there. You can pull back the torque and fly Meridian speeds for much less burn.
4. The extra RVSM altitude seems like a small thing but can be really advantageous picking up a few extra kts or avoiding weather. I was surprised.
5. Insurance/airframe $ is about half of what I was paying for my Mirage.

Cost for the first year has been about $550 per hour w 230 hours not counting depreciation but including $28K to replace the air conditioner, $2k to replace front wheel axle and $6K for a torque transducer. The more you fly the less cost each incremental hour is. ($500 cost may or may not be typical as plane had just had a c+ inspection prepurchase so there were no real big gotchas)


Last edited on 07 Sep 2017, 11:27, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Half Curious/Serious CSOTBM Question (Q for the TBM folk
PostPosted: 07 Sep 2017, 10:37 
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Took me a minute, but by "C2" you mean TBM700C2, not Citation II....

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 Post subject: Re: Half Curious/Serious CSOTBM Question (Q for the TBM folk
PostPosted: 07 Sep 2017, 11:28 
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Joined: 10/11/13
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Username Protected wrote:
Took me a minute, but by "C2" you mean TBM700C2, not Citation II....



Yup, I Clarified, thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: Half Curious/Serious CSOTBM Question (Q for the TBM folk
PostPosted: 07 Sep 2017, 17:04 
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Joined: 03/09/11
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Company: Wings Insurance
Location: Eden Prairie, MN / Scottsdale, AZ
Aircraft: 2016 Cirrus SR22 G5
Username Protected wrote:
While this will likely never happen personally, I can't help but wonder....

Are the older TBMs the best value in a SETP out there?

DOCs in the $500-700 range sound accurate?

Will the Kestrel and Epic put appreciable pressure on the lower end of this market?

Is it a reasonable idea to hang a mid-time PT6 to replace a run out unit on a TBM (maybe the engine model(s) used on the TBM is not typically floating around as mid-time cast offs?

Sure seems like you can get an awful lot of airplane for the same money as a new SR22...

I'd post this on TBMOPA, but not ready to pay $350 to ask a question - ;-)


I really appreciate you starting this thread Jim - the TBM (likely B model) will be our next aircraft after flying the G5 Cirrus around for another year or two. Watching things intently here :) :cheers:

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Wings Insurance
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E-mail: thauge@wingsinsurance.com


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 Post subject: Re: Half Curious/Serious CSOTBM Question (Q for the TBM folk
PostPosted: 03 Sep 2019, 16:14 
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The Meridian at ISA +10 (typical US temps, unless you can find that magical ISA day) is a fuel burn of 234 pph (34.9 gph) and at FL260 is 250 pph (37.3 gph). TAS is going to be in the 260-265 KTAS range.

For napkin math if you don't use a computer, the Meridian burns 50 gph the first hour, 40 gph subsequent hours, should have a 30 gallon reserve and becomes a glider (a very good one with an 18:1 glide ratio) at 4 hrs and 20 minutes. ;)

You can improve specific fuel consumption up to 20% by pulling the power lever back.

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 Post subject: Re: Half Curious/Serious CSOTBM Question (Q for the TBM folk
PostPosted: 03 Sep 2019, 16:26 
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Username Protected wrote:
While this will likely never happen personally, I can't help but wonder....

Are the older TBMs the best value in a SETP out there?



I really appreciate you starting this thread Jim - the TBM (likely B model) will be our next aircraft after flying the G5 Cirrus around for another year or two. Watching things intently here :) :cheers:


Tom is the "B" door for you or your partner? :D

The TBM is a tank that fly's like a Porsche. The older ones now can be updated with new avionics and A/P. Hardly any, except the air ambulance guys, have many hours on them. Many old Meridian guys traded up to TBM's. The DOC's and fuel burn are a little higher but so is speed, range and comfort. Buy the best you can afford. It will serve you well. Pressurization and 300KTS+ are game changers at 50-60gph. Personal airliner that is on your schedule to your choice of airports when you want to go....

So I'm in love... Shoot me... :coffee:
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 Post subject: Re: Half Curious/Serious CSOTBM Question (Q for the TBM folk
PostPosted: 03 Sep 2019, 20:17 
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Joined: 09/02/09
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Location: Oklahoma City - PWA/Calistoga KSTS
Aircraft: UMF3, UBF 2, P180 II
My annuals have averaged $85k over 3 years. One year I had all the gear stuff and tail removal at 10 years but the others aren’t cheap. Hangar runs $5500, insurance $11,000, subscriptions and sat phone about $2,000. With fuel at $4.5 a gallon total is in the neighborhood of $800/hr. This doesn’t include Hot or overhaul, interest carrying costs or market depreciation. Flew 40 hours last month so the meter spins fast...they aren’t cheap but I love mine.

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Travel Air B4000, Waco UBF2,UMF3,YMF5, UPF7,YKS 6, Fairchild 24W, Cessna 120
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 Post subject: Re: Half Curious/Serious CSOTBM Question (Q for the TBM folk
PostPosted: 03 Sep 2019, 20:19 
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Joined: 09/02/09
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Aircraft: UMF3, UBF 2, P180 II
Username Protected wrote:
The Meridian at ISA +10 (typical US temps, unless you can find that magical ISA day) is a fuel burn of 234 pph (34.9 gph) and at FL260 is 250 pph (37.3 gph). TAS is going to be in the 260-265 KTAS range.

For napkin math if you don't use a computer, the Meridian burns 50 gph the first hour, 40 gph subsequent hours, should have a 30 gallon reserve and becomes a glider (a very good one with an 18:1 glide ratio) at 4 hrs and 20 minutes. ;)

You can improve specific fuel consumption up to 20% by pulling the power lever back.


Are you trying to imitate Jason?

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Travel Air B4000, Waco UBF2,UMF3,YMF5, UPF7,YKS 6, Fairchild 24W, Cessna 120
Never enough!


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 Post subject: Re: Half Curious/Serious CSOTBM Question (Q for the TBM folk
PostPosted: 04 Sep 2019, 11:34 
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Location: Franklin, TN 615-739-9091 chip@jetacq.com
Anthony speaks the truth on TBM maintenance. The TBM is a GREAT airplane, but the operating cost is quite a bit higher than many claim. We take on a lot of TBM acquisitions and more often than not, the client, once given factual data chooses to buy something else.

One example is a $1M TBM buyer who ended up buying a King Air 300 instead, same acquisition cost, 300 kts... more airplane to own / operate... but not by a lot and way more capable. Older of course. Our client LOVES his airplane and says he's amazed how often he does fill the seats up.

We recently closed on a Mustang for a client that hired us to buy a King Air 90, but then decided on a TBM because of speed. We couldn't get the panel he wanted for less than $1.5M... I had to let him know he was getting into Mustang money. 330kts... G1000, it's a jet so there will be some jet expenses, but what an airplane. Plus, the one we bought was a gem... I couldn't find a $1.5M - $1.6M TBM that nice.

The big difference is type rating, both of these guys had to go to training and get typed. There is nothing as fast as a TBM without a type rating.

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