banner
banner

09 Dec 2019, 16:53 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


Greenwich AeroGroup



Reply to topic  [ 68 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
Username Protected Message
 Post subject: Re: TBM VS Epic LT
PostPosted: 17 Aug 2017, 11:24 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile

Joined: 07/21/08
Posts: 4403
Post Likes: +4046
Location: Decatur , TX (XA99)
Aircraft: 340, Frankenplane
One thing that Epic has going for them is the fact that the LT has been flying for several years. They are not trying to certify a clean sheet design. I would have to think this would make the cert process a bit easier.

_________________
C340 recurrent 10/18


Top

 Post subject: Re: TBM VS Epic LT
PostPosted: 17 Aug 2017, 15:18 
Offline


 Profile

Joined: 09/19/10
Posts: 285
Post Likes: +119
Aircraft: TBM
That's what Lancair (Columbia) thought when they tried to certify the ES into the Columbia. Not so much... it financially broke them and the planes ended up vastly different. All the ES development experience amounted to nothing. Maybe even negative as they went down paths they THOUGHT would work... and then had to backtrack to get a certifiable aircraft.

Don't get me wrong - the ES is a marvelous plane. The Epic is a nice plane too. But as others have discovered, the difference between homebuilt and certified is night and day.

Username Protected wrote:
One thing that Epic has going for them is the fact that the LT has been flying for several years. They are not trying to certify a clean sheet design. I would have to think this would make the cert process a bit easier.


Top

 Post subject: Re: TBM VS Epic LT
PostPosted: 17 Aug 2017, 16:02 
Online


 Profile

Joined: 08/14/13
Posts: 3490
Post Likes: +1937
Aircraft: LancairES TAT-TN
Username Protected wrote:
But as others have discovered, the difference between homebuilt and certified is night and day.



just want to clarify, this goes both ways, i'll take my airplane over any certified all day long


Top

 Post subject: Re: TBM VS Epic LT
PostPosted: 17 Aug 2017, 17:07 
Online


User avatar
 Profile

Joined: 11/06/10
Posts: 10618
Post Likes: +2041
Company: Looking
Location: 6B6 - Stow, Massachusetts
Aircraft: SR22
Username Protected wrote:
One thing that Epic has going for them is the fact that the LT has been flying for several years. They are not trying to certify a clean sheet design. I would have to think this would make the cert process a bit easier.


Unlike Lancair which took an experimental and tried to certify with Columbia, Epic started with a plane which was supposed to be certified and went experimental to make revenue before certification.

That may help them in the end.

Tim


Top

 Post subject: Re: TBM VS Epic LT
PostPosted: 17 Aug 2017, 17:56 
Offline


 Profile

Joined: 09/19/10
Posts: 285
Post Likes: +119
Aircraft: TBM
I get it. I've had both a Lancair and certified planes. I did love my Lancair and the freedom associated with it (ie. avionics installation flexibility, ability to be creative with ergonomics and creature comforts, speed and efficiency, cost, etc.). But when it comes to weather capability and support (ie. the stuff I couldn't get at NAPA), they are completely different machines. I just wish I flew enough to feel comfortable keeping both an experimental and a certified. I'd probably make 70% of my flights in the Lancair.

Username Protected wrote:
But as others have discovered, the difference between homebuilt and certified is night and day.



just want to clarify, this goes both ways, i'll take my airplane over any certified all day long


Top

 Post subject: Re: TBM VS Epic LT
PostPosted: 17 Aug 2017, 18:32 
Offline



User avatar
 Profile

Joined: 03/16/15
Posts: 334
Post Likes: +183
Location: Bend, OR
We see our neighbors across the runway at KBDN flying the LTs daily and know many of their test pilots and instructors. They are working diligently on certifying the E1000 and will hopefully have it done soon. Having had the pleasure of riding in the LT, it would be at the very top of my list! Good grief that thing can climb! :bugeye:

_________________
Dave Arata
Sales/Support
Electronics International


Top

 Post subject: Re: TBM VS Epic LT
PostPosted: 17 Aug 2017, 19:48 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile

Joined: 08/04/08
Posts: 1039
Post Likes: +379
Location: MYF, San Diego, CA
Aircraft: A36
The Epic E1000 certified airplane looks promising to me. If they can hold their price they should give TBM a run for their money. The new GE engine will add another dimension to the SETP space. Good for potential customers.

But the OP was asking about an older TBM v the Epic LT. Someone said certified v experimental was a big deal. I think this deserves a thread all of its own. I have been interested in experimentals for their performance and value. My thinking was most of the crucial work is done by professionals dependant upon their reputation- who cares if there isn't an FAA custody chain for every rivet? Recently, however, I came across Austin Meyers thread, http://austinmeyer.com/2016/06/14/844x-ups-and-downs/ that got me thinking, the freedom inherent in building an experimental is both a blessing and a curse. The freedom means many, many choices. I recently remodelled a house - God I hated the number of choices I had to make! And my life wasn't going top depend on the knobs on drawers. Given that the OP is considering a used TBM against an Epic LT, he's probably thinking of a used airplane. Each builder will have made his own suite of choices amongst hundreds, possibly thousands of cases. Everyone airplane will be truly unique of the millions of potential variants. I'm dissuading myself further as I write this.

And then there was canopy that popped-out on a previously pressurized Evolution. Color choice is a mooted explanation of that failure. Apparently only particular parts of the airframe are sensitive to this choice. If that turns out to be the cause, is it likely a potential buyer of a used airplane would know the design to that level of detail? Could a buyer be sure an inspection would catch any similar case where the builder has gone beyond the design? For now, my hankering for a pressurized experimental has declined, particularly one that I didn't build with professional help.

Against all that though, most airplanes crash because of the pilot - even amongst experimental airplanes. My impression is that when experimental airplanes crash because of the airplane, it's usually because the builder was particularly crass and/or rash. Hopefully a buyer could avoid airplanes built by such people, but I'm not sure I want to stake my life and a lot of money on hope. Next week I might feel differently.

Ashley


Top

 Post subject: Re: TBM VS Epic LT
PostPosted: 17 Aug 2017, 20:50 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile

Joined: 07/21/08
Posts: 4403
Post Likes: +4046
Location: Decatur , TX (XA99)
Aircraft: 340, Frankenplane
Username Protected wrote:
The Epic E1000 certified airplane looks promising to me. If they can hold their price they should give TBM a run for their money. The new GE engine will add another dimension to the SETP space. Good for potential customers.

But the OP was asking about an older TBM v the Epic LT. Someone said certified v experimental was a big deal. I think this deserves a thread all of its own. I have been interested in experimentals for their performance and value. My thinking was most of the crucial work is done by professionals dependant upon their reputation- who cares if there isn't an FAA custody chain for every rivet? Recently, however, I came across Austin Meyers thread, http://austinmeyer.com/2016/06/14/844x-ups-and-downs/ that got me thinking, the freedom inherent in building an experimental is both a blessing and a curse. The freedom means many, many choices. I recently remodelled a house - God I hated the number of choices I had to make! And my life wasn't going top depend on the knobs on drawers. Given that the OP is considering a used TBM against an Epic LT, he's probably thinking of a used airplane. Each builder will have made his own suite of choices amongst hundreds, possibly thousands of cases. Everyone airplane will be truly unique of the millions of potential variants. I'm dissuading myself further as I write this.

And then there was canopy that popped-out on a previously pressurized Evolution. Color choice is a mooted explanation of that failure. Apparently only particular parts of the airframe are sensitive to this choice. If that turns out to be the cause, is it likely a potential buyer of a used airplane would know the design to that level of detail? Could a buyer be sure an inspection would catch any similar case where the builder has gone beyond the design? For now, my hankering for a pressurized experimental has declined, particularly one that I didn't build with professional help.

Against all that though, most airplanes crash because of the pilot - even amongst experimental airplanes. My impression is that when experimental airplanes crash because of the airplane, it's usually because the builder was particularly crass and/or rash. Hopefully a buyer could avoid airplanes built by such people, but I'm not sure I want to stake my life and a lot of money on hope. Next week I might feel differently.

Ashley

You cant build an Epic in your dad's garage using left over Briggs and Stratton parts. Every one of them is built at the factory under very close supervision, and the amount of choices an owner has is limited to the ones provided them by the factory.
This is not an RV, its a factory built plane that the owner helps ( wink,wink) build.

_________________
C340 recurrent 10/18


Top

 Post subject: Re: TBM VS Epic LT
PostPosted: 17 Aug 2017, 21:53 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile

Joined: 08/04/08
Posts: 1039
Post Likes: +379
Location: MYF, San Diego, CA
Aircraft: A36
My understanding is that Epic kits are no longer available. I thought all advanced kits were highly controlled, but someone chose a prohibited color for an Evolution. Whether that caused a depressurization not yet clear, but the factory stated the color was prohibited. (If they didn't use 'prohibited', the word was close. )

Ashley


Top

 Post subject: Re: TBM VS Epic LT
PostPosted: 17 Aug 2017, 22:38 
Offline


 Profile

Joined: 08/03/13
Posts: 1016
Post Likes: +619
Location: SW Colorado
Aircraft: C182
Wink, wink did certainly not apply to my brother or other families, which have since become his friends. He was the first out after reorganization and spent two days with the FAA (4500 photos of him/me/his wife and others doing various construction aspects). Many builders dedicated years and money to save the company and complete their aircraft.

During the build, supervisors watched and evaluated our skills, starting with sand paper and moving through power tools. It seemed as though each task was inspected at least twice and signed off. My favorite was the mating of the wing halves, in which most of the workers assembled together to work together and fast. My regret, that we did not use respiratory protection when sanding the carbon fiber. The motel life was a bit tedious as well.

My understanding is that the last experimental position was sold to a second time owner in Colorado.

I know several LT owners that have positions for the E1000. Someday, a few LTs may be coming up for sale.


Top

 Post subject: Re: TBM VS Epic LT
PostPosted: 18 Aug 2017, 08:32 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile

Joined: 01/29/08
Posts: 24678
Post Likes: +11630
Location: Walterboro, SC. KRBW
Aircraft: PC12NG
Username Protected wrote:
My regret, that we did not use respiratory protection when sanding the carbon fiber. The motel life was a bit tedious as well.

Ha. Sounds awesome. Where do I send my millions so I can get started?

No doubt the Epic is an awesome airplane. It's just that the Certified version, so I don't have to do my own sanding, will cost considerably more.

Cirrus SF50 is $1.9MM or so. I sat in one yesterday. It has like 4 buttons in it. Unusually simple.


Top

 Post subject: Re: TBM VS Epic LT
PostPosted: 18 Aug 2017, 09:28 
Online


User avatar
 Profile

Joined: 11/06/10
Posts: 10618
Post Likes: +2041
Company: Looking
Location: 6B6 - Stow, Massachusetts
Aircraft: SR22
Username Protected wrote:
Ha. Sounds awesome. Where do I send my millions so I can get started?

No doubt the Epic is an awesome airplane. It's just that the Certified version, so I don't have to do my own sanding, will cost considerably more.

Cirrus SF50 is $1.9MM or so. I sat in one yesterday. It has like 4 buttons in it. Unusually simple.


4! That must have been a mock up. I expect a single start/stop button, and then Hal does everything.

http://youtu.be/HwBmPiOmEGQ


Tim


Top

 Post subject: Re: TBM VS Epic LT
PostPosted: 18 Aug 2017, 10:19 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile

Joined: 01/29/08
Posts: 24678
Post Likes: +11630
Location: Walterboro, SC. KRBW
Aircraft: PC12NG
4 buttons in the SF50

Go
Stop
Up
Down

Speak into the microphone to tell it what city to fly to. Done


Top

 Post subject: Re: TBM VS Epic LT
PostPosted: 18 Aug 2017, 10:35 
Online


User avatar
 Profile

Joined: 11/06/10
Posts: 10618
Post Likes: +2041
Company: Looking
Location: 6B6 - Stow, Massachusetts
Aircraft: SR22
Username Protected wrote:
4 buttons in the SF50

Go
Stop
Up
Down

Speak into the microphone to tell it what city to fly to. Done


Nah, they follow Apple mentality. Minimal interface to protect the user from hurting themselves (or being productive):
One button. start/stop.
Hold for three seconds: deploy chute.
Land, takeoff, taxi, navigation, faster.... all done via the microphone.

Tim


Top

 Post subject: Re: TBM VS Epic LT
PostPosted: 18 Aug 2017, 10:36 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile

Joined: 01/28/13
Posts: 3710
Post Likes: +1865
Location: Indiana
Aircraft: C195, D17S
Username Protected wrote:
4 buttons in the SF50

Go
Stop
Up
Down

Speak into the microphone to tell it what city to fly to. Done


Was the handle for the shute hidden?

:coffee:

_________________
Chuck
KEVV


Top

Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic  [ 68 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next




You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  

Terms of Service | Forum FAQ | Contact Us

BeechTalk, LLC is the quintessential Beechcraft Owners & Pilots Group providing a forum for the discussion of technical, practical, and entertaining issues relating to all Beech aircraft. These include the Bonanza (both V-tail and straight-tail models), Baron, Debonair, Duke, Twin Bonanza, King Air, Sierra, Skipper, Sport, Sundowner, Musketeer, Travel Air, Starship, Queen Air, BeechJet, and Premier lines of airplanes, turboprops, and turbojets.

BeechTalk, LLC is not affiliated or endorsed by the Beechcraft Corporation, its subsidiaries, or affiliates. Beechcraft™, King Air™, and Travel Air™ are the registered trademarks of the Beechcraft Corporation.

Copyright© BeechTalk, LLC 2007-2019

.ABS-85x100.jpg.
.tulsair-85x50.jpg.
.airplanesusa-85x50.png.
.temple-85x100-2015-02-23.jpg.
.FreeFlight_85x50.jpg.
.Trace.jpg.
.MountainAirframe.jpg.
.wildblue-85x50.jpg.
.truecourse.jpg.
.Bendix_85x50(1).png.
.weatherspork_85x50.jpg.
.gallagher_85x50.jpg.
.L3_85x100.jpg.
.SCA.jpg.
.avfab-85x50-2018-12-04.png.
.Steel_85x50.jpg.
.selectairparts-85x100.jpg.
.headsetsetc_Small_85x50.jpg.
.tat-85x100.png.
.pdi-85x50.jpg.
.AAI.jpg.
.jandsaviation-85x50.jpg.
.uavionix-85x50.png.
.Davis_Aviation_85x50.jpg.
.airmart-85x150.png.
.Electroair.jpg.
.chairmanaviation-85x50.jpg.
.kingairacademy-85x100.png.
.planelogix-85x100-2015-04-15.jpg.
.tempest.jpg.
.airpower-85x50.jpg.
.Showalter.jpg.
.Genesys_85x50.jpg.
.fortner-85x50.jpg.
.ei-85x150.jpg.
.STLAir_85x50.jpg.
.bpt-85x50-2019-07-27.jpg.
.instar.jpg.
.geebee-85x50.jpg.
.Outright_85_50.png.
.KalAir_Black.jpg.
.Expert_Aircraft_Solution_85x50.jpg.
.Rocky-Mountain-Turbine-85x100.jpg.
.lopresti_85x50.jpg.
.jetaviva-85x50.jpg.
.hpair-85x50.jpg.
.methodseven-85x50.jpg.
.saint-85x50.jpg.
.rtc-85x200.jpg.
.Anrim_85x200.png.
.avionicssource-85x50.jpg.
.blackhawk-85x100-2019-09-25.jpg.
.ps_engineering.gif.
.byerlyaviation-85x50.png.
.Latitude.jpg.
.heartlandsm.jpg.
.kingairdom.jpg.
.sureflight-85x50.jpg.
.sierratrax-85x50.jpg.
.westsky.jpg.
.CiESVer2.jpg.
.Marsh.jpg.
.camguard.jpg.
.wilco-85x100.png.
.ForeFlight.jpeg.
.jetacquisitions-85x50.png.
.Wentworth_85x100.JPG.
.McPeck_85x50.jpg.
.aviationdesigndouble.jpg.
.centex-85x50.jpg.
.kadex-85x50.jpg.
.daytona.jpg.
.tas-85x50.jpg.
.cav-85x50.jpg.
.garmin-85x200-2019-11-01.jpg.
.dshannon.jpg.
.avidyne-85x50-2017-11-22.jpg.
.dbm.jpg.
.cubcrafters.jpg.
.midwest2.jpg.
.aircraftassociates-85x50.png.
.bkool-85x50-2014-08-04.jpg.