My overall inexperienced impression is that older jets don't necessarily cost more to maintain then newer ones.

New jets tend not to have as many choices for parts, and often they are procured at list prices on part programs. Old jets have more choices for parts, sometimes can get used parts.

If there is a weakness in an old jet, somebody has a fix for it or there are well known mitigations.

The older jet may have more expense due to airframe wear out issues. Things like flap tracks, hydraulics, etc. The new jet is likely to have a complex avionic suite and these are not exactly trouble free in many instances.

Mods are generally much cheaper for older jets. I hear of ADS-B kit prices for some newer jets in the > $100K range. Older jets generally can have a cheaper alternative (say install GTX345).

I think the real answer is that it depends a lot on which type and which serial number is involved.

I think the worst case would be a mid 1990s jet with CRT displays and an old avionics suite. That's complex to upgrade, not very reliable, and old. Younger has better electronics. Older has steam gauges which can be easily changed to PFDs like the G600. The early electronic airplanes are thus the worst of both.


I think the inspection program is a key factor in high use cases, so you should check on that. I know some of the older models have programs (Bacon for example) for low use cases.


My impression is that JT15 is about as reliable as an FJ44. You hear of problems occurring in both engines, but infrequent. The JT15 has a LOT of hours on it and there's hardly anything unknown about them.


I believe there are some PMA part alternatives for the JT15.

There are also alternative maintenance options (like extending TBO by 1750 hours).


For both labor and parts, you have to go to Williams for your FJ44.


I don't know about the CJ series.

SII with JT15 is around 400 KTAS.
SII with FJ44 is around 425 KTAS.

SII is quite a bit faster than the stock II and is one of the fastest straight wing Citations.


The FJ44 burns less than the JT15, so newer engine is less fuel. That is their primary benefit, greater efficiency.

Mike C.

I'd be curious what the outcome is.


You just "tapped" this for repairing your broke engine, no? So you will get a negative balance from that event, right? Or at least very close to negative.

This means you will be able to find out what the repair cost for the #3 bearing, or at least what PWC thinks they should dock your balance for.

To restate an earlier question, if you have a negative engine program balance and you sell the airplane, are you required to pay up the balance to clear that for the new owner?

Mike C.

In my limited experience of owning a Citation with FJ engines, including attending (2) CJP conventions I have yet to meet anyone who has been screwed by Pratt or Williams.

Sure we complain about the price but no one I have spoken to (including the open forums at the convention) has a service gripe.

Clint’s experience is Typical of what I hear.

Andrew

I know this is directed at Clint with the Pratt’s but for Williams it’s a no.

Andrew.

I know this is directed at Clint with the Pratt’s but for Williams it’s a no.

I'm not saying they have screwed anybody now, or that they necessarily will in the future. All I am saying is that they CAN if they want to and the owners have no recourse. The lack of owner options unbalances the power in that relationship.

Well, they are screwing those who are off program by gratuitously making HSI and OH costs punitive. The Williams rep said they price HSI and OH at least 40% higher than being on the program.

For off program engines, I was quoted (in 2016) a HSI price of $406,471 and an OH price of $1,081,597 for FJ44-3A. These were *minimum* prices, if no discrepancies are found. Works out to $372/hour for 4000 TBO. Yowza!

The message was clear, be on the program, or be screwed.

Williams rep said 78% of all engines are on program. I would have guessed higher.

Mike C.

Agreed, but you’d wonder why they aren’t doing that now. Why not if they can?

When on TAP blue ( I upgraded to that for corrosion coverage mainly) you can do the pilot 2 day training course for free. My mechanic can get his training at Williams to get it added to his license at no cost as I’m on Blue.

They seem to be service orientated.

Andrew

I'd be curious what the outcome is.


You just "tapped" this for repairing your broke engine, no? So you will get a negative balance from that event, right? Or at least very close to negative.

This means you will be able to find out what the repair cost for the #3 bearing, or at least what PWC thinks they should dock your balance for.

To restate an earlier question, if you have a negative engine program balance and you sell the airplane, are you required to pay up the balance to clear that for the new owner?

Mike C.

Meaning that if you had not been on program, you would have still paid less even though you were among the unlucky with a major unscheduled event?

What would your balance be if the #3 bearing on the other side goes kaput on the next flight?

It appears PWC has an issue with the #3 bearing, been some number of incidents lately.


So, again I ask, if you have a negative engine program balance with PWC, do you have to pay up when you sell or go off program?

If the answer is yes, then how does the program protect you from an expensive engine event early in its life?

Mike C.

Look, I can see you don't get it. Each engine has its own reserve. It works. You don't like it. You're going to argue at my stupidity to eternity. That's fine. Don't buy anything on programs. Self insuring is what you want. Anything else is going to be wasteful. Good luck to you.

This is the first one since 2014. There have been four in the history of this engine.

Do you have to pay up a negative balance when you sell or go off program?

Mike C.

If I tell you, you're going to argue either why I'm wrong or why I'm foolish. Buy one and figure it out.

Off at A2, contacting ground...

About 450 Mustangs, 900 PW615F engines.

Average Mustang hours are probably around 1000 hours. 900,000 total engine hours. 4 failures, MTBF in the field for the #3 bearing is 225,000 hours. Per aircraft, one failure in 112,500 hours.

That does seem like a high failure rate for just one part of the engine. About 1% of Mustangs have suffered this problem.

Mike C.

You better not buy one.