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 Post subject: Used Competition Aerobatic Aircraft
PostPosted: 16 Jul 2017, 14:27 
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Joined: 10/05/09
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Location: Charleston, SC (KJZI)
Aircraft: Phenom 300
Anyone out there with experience with aerobatic aircraft; what are your thoughts on an Extra 3xx that was used for 6 years and 600 hours of IAC unlimited competition? The Extra's were designed for that purpose, +/-10g.

Fatigue issues?
Engine/Prop maintenance issues?


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 Post subject: Re: Used Competition Aerobatic Aircraft
PostPosted: 16 Jul 2017, 14:44 
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Joined: 01/28/13
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Location: Salzburg, Austria
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would not see a lot of issues with the airframe, that could not be fixed relatively easily…

but it will for 99.9% need an engine overhaul…one on the expensive side with a new crankshaft I mean…prop depends…which one…?


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 Post subject: Re: Used Competition Aerobatic Aircraft
PostPosted: 16 Jul 2017, 14:48 
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Joined: 10/05/09
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Location: Charleston, SC (KJZI)
Aircraft: Phenom 300
Factory Standard: AEIO-580-B1A with MTV 9-B-C/C198-25 3-Blade Composite Prop


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 Post subject: Re: Used Competition Aerobatic Aircraft
PostPosted: 16 Jul 2017, 14:54 
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Location: Salzburg, Austria
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well the MTVs are relatively cheap to overhaul…

good workover the airframe…overhaul on the engine…overhaul on the prop to make sure…and you may be good to go for another gut wrenching +/- 10 G 600 hours…

600 hours is about what these components last in between overhauls if you ride them hard…

that's why a lot of them get sold with exactly that number of hours….

firewall forward probably 70% of the USD value of the plane….count on 100K to 150K USD for refurbishment of all…

well, that is what the last one of that (hourly) vintage that I knew had cost in Europe to set straight again..and the engine went to the US for overhaul….those aerobatic Lycs are very expensive…( but good..)

or in other words…firewall forward nearly is the total value of the plane...


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 Post subject: Re: Used Competition Aerobatic Aircraft
PostPosted: 16 Jul 2017, 20:31 
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Joined: 05/23/13
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Company: Jet Acquisitions
Location: Franklin, TN 615-739-9091 chip@jetacq.com
Extra 300L is my favorite airplane of all time. The one my buddy had was a former Northern Lights airplane. They are designed well beyond any airframe issues!

One day... :pray:

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It’s a brave new world, one where most have forgotten the old ways.


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 Post subject: Re: Used Competition Aerobatic Aircraft
PostPosted: 16 Jul 2017, 20:55 
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Aircraft: G44, C501, C55, R66
just to verify for my knowledge a ridden hard and put away wet acro plane needs its motor overhauled every 600 hours?


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 Post subject: Re: Used Competition Aerobatic Aircraft
PostPosted: 16 Jul 2017, 22:17 
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Aircraft: Pitts S-2B
I think that depends on the engine and how it was operated. High-compression engines, in particular, are like to need an overhaul after a few hundred hours. The stock AEIO-540 in our Pitts made it to 1,550 hours before overhaul. 6 years of unlimited would be hard on anything, though.


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 Post subject: Re: Used Competition Aerobatic Aircraft
PostPosted: 16 Jul 2017, 22:22 
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Username Protected wrote:
just to verify for my knowledge a ridden hard and put away wet acro plane needs its motor overhauled every 600 hours?


well at least the ones I know and knew needed it…we are talikng "unlimited" acro stuff…unhealthy negative Gs…lots of outside snaps and so on...

not a liesurely roll or loop during some cross country flights at times…used like that an Extra's big Lyc will live forever...


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 Post subject: Re: Used Competition Aerobatic Aircraft
PostPosted: 16 Jul 2017, 22:33 
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Username Protected wrote:
I think that depends on the engine and how it was operated. High-compression engines, in particular, are like to need an overhaul after a few hundred hours. The stock AEIO-540 in our Pitts made it to 1,550 hours before overhaul. 6 years of unlimited would be hard on anything, though.


Martin, yes you are right with the Pitts' 540…on one S-2B though we did have a crankshaft crack ( for the known S2B reasons..) just so happened also at around 600 hrs since overhaul too, the top end would have been fine, but it needed a new crankshaft, i.e. overhaul…but would agree that the stock 540 on a Pitts is very robust..


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 Post subject: Re: Used Competition Aerobatic Aircraft
PostPosted: 16 Jul 2017, 23:03 
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If the plane was taken care of I would not have a problem with those hours. I easily put 300 to 400 hours a year on the three Extras I had for about 10 years.

600 hours does not mean the engine needs an overhaul btw. I did lots of snapping, tumbling and never had a crank problem. I broke more Extra frames than engines. I am not a fan of MT's to many broken lag bolts.

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 Post subject: Re: Used Competition Aerobatic Aircraft
PostPosted: 16 Jul 2017, 23:16 
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Username Protected wrote:
I broke more Extra frames than engines.


YIKES
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 Post subject: Re: Used Competition Aerobatic Aircraft
PostPosted: 17 Jul 2017, 00:30 
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Username Protected wrote:
. I did lots of snapping, tumbling and never had a crank problem.


yes, that "crankproblem" is more specific for Pitts S-2Bs in combination with the "D" motor and the 2-blade metal props..that is why you have to inspect the flange on these birds every 10 hours if certain maneuvers are flown and usually can catch a crack in the crank before the prop comes off in flight..

The Extra's 540s or 580s do have a very different crankshaft configuration and in combination with the fact that they all have 3 or 4 blade composite props which seem not to be so hard on the crank do not have these problems that often…if at all..


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 Post subject: Re: Used Competition Aerobatic Aircraft
PostPosted: 17 Jul 2017, 02:13 
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Location: Salzburg, Austria
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Username Protected wrote:
maintenance issues?


maybe one could say, at least that is the norm here in Europe…

good rule of thumb in regards to ownership and maintenance costs on an "unlimited" bird if flown in "hard acro" mode..

double the fuel costs per hour, compared to a nonaerobatic 6 banger single, and triple the maintenance costs per hour compared again to a non acro bird..

so just hypothetically…let's assume a Bo 36 in the US if flown 100 hours a year, let's just say, costs 250 USD direct ops costs per hour…make that 700 + USD per hour on an Extra, if flown in acro mode..

anybody who may say it costs less, either is overly optimistic, or has a sponsor with an open pocket book and does not see the upkeep bills..'s as simple as that at the end of the day…(assuming naturally such an acro bird does receive the TLC necessary any serious pilot deems appropriate, if he wants to stay halfway safe and minimize the inherent risks associated with upside down flying…)

other than that those Extras are nice and sturdy birds...


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 Post subject: Re: Used Competition Aerobatic Aircraft
PostPosted: 17 Jul 2017, 07:27 
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Between Gerhard, Rocky, and Martin, I have nothing else to add other than to rephrase it again:

Acro planes can be capable and occasionally flown to their max capability, but many hours are typically less "extreme" when the plane is flying cross country to/from a regional competition or if its a 2-seater many hours might be less aggressive acro for sake of the passenger... I wouldn't be scared of a higher time acro airframe and engine, but if all of those hours were training and competing in a small local area with only Unlimited level stuff being done, then you need you're eyes wide open when you inspect that plane for purchase.

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 Post subject: Re: Used Competition Aerobatic Aircraft
PostPosted: 17 Jul 2017, 13:36 
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I've certainly never heard the words MT Prop and Cheap Overhaul used in the same decade... but still its a good prop.

Some of the Ea300 have a crack issue in the tail? I know there is a fix.
Its a wonderful light airplane with easy landing habits and visibility.

A lot of the airshow guys overhaul their engines much more often but usually they have some deal with an engine builder and are always looking for that last .001% power. And god forbid if Person-A got some new mod then persons B through Z must have it ASAP.

If you buy at the right price it always seems like the type of plane that you won't have a problem selling.

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