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 Post subject: Re: What plane am I describing?
PostPosted: 18 Jul 2017, 08:08 
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Jason
Depends on your mission

If you want to carry a lot for a long way you are correct

But if you want to go from ny to Fla in less than 3 hours and fly over the weather a vlj is your best bet


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 Post subject: Re: What plane am I describing?
PostPosted: 18 Jul 2017, 08:12 
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Username Protected wrote:
But if you want to go from ny to Fla in less than 3 hours and fly over the weather a vlj is your best bet

What VLJ will do this? Not a Mustang.

Also, your post assumes the weather is always at the midpoint in your flight. Last I checked airports are still located on the ground. :D

I did some research on Mustang flights not long ago.... Every Mustang spends 51% of it's flying life below 30K'. For a jet to make sense, it has to be able to stay high for a ling time. Mustang can't do it. That said, I would absolutely buy and love a Mustang for $1.5MM. But not for $4MM.


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 Post subject: Re: What plane am I describing?
PostPosted: 18 Jul 2017, 08:23 
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Username Protected wrote:

Although I am not seriously considering a jet purchase, I do have a specific follow up question related to the thread, mostly to all the Pilatus and Meridian drivers out there:
If anyone can get into an Eclipse or Mustang for as little as $1.5 mil, why isn't that a better route than the much more expensive turboprops? That seems much lower purchase cost than a Pilatus (and the jet seems more capable.) How much more expensive are they in the air? (Gotta be loads, right?) That said, if you save $1,000,000 on acquisition, you can afford a lot of more expensive hours in the sky.

Not trying to start a fight, just trying to understand decisions.

Joshua


We had chosen the PC12 over other airplanes based on our mission. We routinely fly 6-7 people on a 650nm trip, landing and departing from a 4500' runway. We wanted to be able to do this all year (headwinds, etc etc..) Furthermore, a common trip for us is the northeast down to Miami, and we wanted something with the range that could do that trip against the winter headwinds. For us, the PC12 fit most of what we needed, but there are days I'd love to be looking down at the weather from FL410 :) .

Side note: it looks like Piper did a fantastic job with the M600!! :thumbup:


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 Post subject: Re: What plane am I describing?
PostPosted: 18 Jul 2017, 09:11 
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Username Protected wrote:
But if you want to go from ny to Fla in less than 3 hours and fly over the weather a vlj is your best bet

What VLJ will do this? Not a Mustang.

Also, your post assumes the weather is always at the midpoint in your flight. Last I checked airports are still located on the ground. :D

I did some research on Mustang flights not long ago.... Every Mustang spends 51% of it's flying life below 30K'. For a jet to make sense, it has to be able to stay high for a ling time. Mustang can't do it. That said, I would absolutely buy and love a Mustang for $1.5MM. But not for $4MM.


Jason
I routinely do CDW VRB in my Eclipse and the last two trips broke out of the weather after takeoff at 27K and 37K

There was weather coming into Florida but I had flew right over it :peace:

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 Post subject: Re: What plane am I describing?
PostPosted: 18 Jul 2017, 09:58 
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Username Protected wrote:
I'll let the guys who fly these things fight it out over performance and mission.

From a buying standpoint we would look at likely residual values and which one will actually cost less if you sell it in X years.

Remember, it's not what you pay for it, it's the difference in what you pay for it and what you sell it for.


Chip, I would basically agree with you…but only to a certain extent..and that is a reality that has sunk in, I guess in the US as well as in Europe in recent years…

in regards to residual values I would agree, let us take the PC12, but also the Caravan, those airplanes definitely do hold their values very well…

but with a lot of other airplanes, especially those types that had been "overproduced" during the times of "irrational exuberance" before the financial meltdown in 2008/2009, which has wiped out 50% of the values of pretty much every Bizav type of plane, I do think that slowly but surely a more sober and rational approach to "residual values" has sunk into the market expectations both in the US but also in Europe.

Means, buyers and sellers alike, slowly are getting used to the completely normal fact of life that mobile assets actually really do depreciate in the real world.

Means successful business owners, who would not lose a night 's sleep over the fact that some of their investments into equipment in their businesses lose a lot of market value every year, also have come to terms with the fact, that that is exactly the same case with airplanes…

so the pre meltdown rationale, that one only has to finance the "assumed" difference between the actual purchase price and some "virtual" future market value, does not really work anymore, in my humble opinion. ( in some cases back then people actually thought that their airplanes would appreciate in value over time…ridiculous..just because, yes there had been cases where some "instant" millionaires wanted a bird as in "right now" and were ready to pay over list or asking…but those times are over…for a long time now…)

I may be wrong, but strongly feel by personal observation and experience that that is more and more the case now.

Gerd

P.S.: or in other words…."yes, airplanes DO lose value, like cars…get over it…"


Stocking dealers are still buying airplanes, spending money on cosmetics and avionics, holding them for months and selling them for a profit. The deals are out there, you just won't find them retail ready and on Controller.

As I look at the airplanes we have acquired in the last couple of years, all of our clients could sell their airplanes and not lose more money than required to pay for the hours flown. We have three clients that could actually sell and make money.


As far as values, you are exactly right, the days of airplanes going up in value are gone. It actually had as much to do with the internet as it did the financial crisis. What we experienced in the 90's and early 2000's was a jet bubble. Prior to the availability of information to the average buyer, it was commonplace for airplanes to sell at higher than market values for huge profits both for the owner and the broker(s) because the buyer had no way of knowing what the airplane was worth or what the last one sold for.

The loss in values experienced in 2008 was simple and we should have seen it coming, publically held companies dumped their big iron and the price pressure top down collapsed the entire market.

This was exasperated, and more painful than it should have been because the banks began a cycle of complaining to Vref and Aircraft Blue Book, who as a result, kept adjusting values down when the market itself tried to stabilize.

Today, values are as stable as we have seen them in years, at least for popular models of aircraft. Buy an old Citation and you can expect a loss... buy an out of production jet and you may be the last owner.

Buy a PC12 and based on a good long history you have probably made a good investment. Buy a King Air or a CJ and buy it right, you won't get hurt too bad. There is no such thing as another mobile asset you can buy and even hope to sell it for close to what you paid for it.

I wouldn't dare tell someone any airplane is a good financial investment. I have seen aircraft values tumble like the stock market. We simply have no way of predicting the future market. BUT- we do have the luxury of knowing today's market. The issue of loss is two fold, what you lose value wise based on the future market... and paying too much based on today's market.

Buy low and sell smart.
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Last edited on 18 Jul 2017, 10:47, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: What plane am I describing?
PostPosted: 18 Jul 2017, 10:00 
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I fly above weather in my Pilatus too. I'm refuting the claim that a jet gets you over all weather all the time.

I'm glad your eclipse works for you on that trip. My Pilatus can do it too. How much can you haul with you? Also, VRB isn't South Florida


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 Post subject: Re: What plane am I describing?
PostPosted: 18 Jul 2017, 10:06 
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Username Protected wrote:
I fly above weather in my Pilatus too. I'm refuting the claim that a jet gets you over all weather all the time.

I'm glad your eclipse works for you on that trip. My Pilatus can do it too. How much can you haul with you?


Yeah, but the chicks dig jets! :coffee:

I drive a Lexus GX470, it gets really good gas mileage for a full time 4 wheel drive SUV... it hauls anything I put in it... will go anywhere and looks luxurious doing it. It's cheaper than a Jeep and IMHO a better 4 wheel drive!

What it isn't is a sportscar... not even close.

A Pilatus is an SUV...

The Mustang is a convertable... well Mustang. :duck:

It all depends on the mission.

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 Post subject: Re: What plane am I describing?
PostPosted: 18 Jul 2017, 10:28 
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I wish the analogy was as simple as comparing airplanes to cars. Sports cars have the same range as SUVs. Landing for gas costs a lot of money and time. Short hops there's no difference in flight time between and PC12 and a Mustsng.

But you said it best...... sex sells jets. If you wanna look cool, buy the Mustang.


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 Post subject: Re: What plane am I describing?
PostPosted: 18 Jul 2017, 13:04 
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Username Protected wrote:
But you said it best...... sex sells jets. If you wanna look cool, buy the Mustang.


I'd rather look smart than sexy, but maybe that's because I've never actually looked sexy before.


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 Post subject: Re: What plane am I describing?
PostPosted: 18 Jul 2017, 13:43 
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Well, to the lay person, PC12 won't make you look smart or sexy. :D


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 Post subject: Re: What plane am I describing?
PostPosted: 18 Jul 2017, 14:56 
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Username Protected wrote:
If you wanna look cool, buy a MU-2.


FIFY :D


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 Post subject: Re: What plane am I describing?
PostPosted: 18 Jul 2017, 17:35 
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Username Protected wrote:
Gary you really want to hate on the Meridian, taking your facts from some dude that knowns some dude that had the chance to lick one one day. I have given you facts, a page from the POH, and I have 1500 hours in P46T's and have owned 3. So believe what you want. As far as the M600 being a 1200 nm aircraft, yeah westbound with a headwind..... Whatever. Here is 1481 nm in an M600 and I landed with over 1.5 hours fuel.

Attachment:
KOGD KGMU 060617.jpg


Here is midway through the flight, and notice the range rings, and the fact that I was lucky enough to be bucking a headwind.

Attachment:
GMU.jpg

Let's back up here for a second. You said before that the Meridian could do "High speed cruise at 28,000 feet on a typical US ISA +10 day is going to burn 235 pph (35) gph cruising 258 KTAS. Yet here you are flying the supposed faster M600 at 256 kts on 37.5 gph. Am I missing something? I also see you were running your ITT at 710. My -42A can run continuous at 750 ITT (not to be mistaken with max continuous of 800 ITT). I would assume the Meridan could as well no? It is the same engine after all. If you are already at 37.5 gph at 710 then it isn't a stretch to claim 39 to 40+ gph at 750 ITT.

Your 1400 nm trip in your M600. I'm suspicious that you had a head wind the entire time. Especially considering your cruise speed there was 256 kts with basically no headwind (looks like maybe 2 kts) and in order to do your trip distance in the time you traveled, you would have to average 260+ kts. Also the fact that your trip took 5:41 min. You'd have to have ~60 gal of fuel to have an hour and a half of fuel left. Using the numbers in your actual picture here, you would have at best had 35 MAYBE 40 gal left and that is being VERY generous. UNLESS, you received a tail wind at one point and powered back some. Again, what am I missing?

I entered the numbers from your flight as well as calculated the average trip speed in this spreadsheet to achieve the flight in the time allowed. Fuel burn will not be exact but doubtful that it's off by a factor of 2 or more...
Attachment:
Meridian Evo Jetprop.xlsx


I'm not trying to hate on anything. I do like to take data from multiple sources and use them all to verify what is right. IF (and that's a big if) I am correct in a couple of my assumptions above, then nothing I said before is necessarily incorrect.

I will be happy to admit though (if this proves to be the case) that some extra performance is capable in the Meridian by simply using just slightly less power. Perhaps my old instructor didn't know this was possible back when he flew them. I don't know. I could definitely see that being possible as it could have been an air frame limitation that produced similar performance for reduced power. I've seen it before.


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 Post subject: Re: What plane am I describing?
PostPosted: 18 Jul 2017, 20:01 
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Username Protected wrote:

IFR regulations state, that you must have enough fuel to fly to the desired destination, then to the alternate and 45 minutes beyond that at normal cruise speed. Not an acceptable powered back speed. Normal cruise speed.

Attachment:
Meridian Evo Jetprop.xlsx


The POH gives equipoise to all listed cruise power settings. There is no normal cruise speed listed in the Meridian POH. The POH gives options from Maximum cruise, which runs the engine to Pratt recommended maximum limits, then there is 1100 ft. lbs. cruise 1000 ft. lbs cruise.......700 ft. lbs cruise all the way down to 500 ft. lb cruise. They are all normal and accepted cruise power settings. So if you choose to cruise at 600 ft. lbs that day, that is your prerogative it is a normal cruise power setting. So you are covered by the FAR. Makes no sense that anyone would run to an alternate airport in bad weather, and minimum fuel at max cruise hugging the barber pole.

I hope in this back and forth that it's understood that I'm making an argument based on the knowledge that has been given me. If I'm wrong, I'm happy to admit so once proven. I'm not trying to be rude, just want to be sure that there is a uniform understanding of the facts. I think it does everyone good to have the same/similar understanding of rules/laws/facts/etc.

Cruise speed definition as I understand and located online:

The average speed of an aircraft during straight-and-level flight at normal power settings. Your cruise speed is some 90 to 95 percent of the top speed.


So when discussing your IFR reserves, you should (as I understand it) be calculating your reserves based off of normal cruise or 90-95% of max cruising speed. Not a reduced power setting.

Do I do this? Nope, I certainly do not, but that is the letter of the law as I was taught by my instructor and that's why he didn't typically get 800nm out of the Meridian.

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 Post subject: Re: What plane am I describing?
PostPosted: 20 Jul 2017, 11:32 
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Guess I killed the conversation, lol. Sorry. Admittedly I can be very stubborn at times and need detailed information to accept/admit that I'm wrong.


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 Post subject: Re: What plane am I describing?
PostPosted: 24 Jul 2017, 13:41 
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Username Protected wrote:
Guess I killed the conversation, lol. Sorry. Admittedly I can be very stubborn at times and need detailed information to accept/admit that I'm wrong.


Sorry, no I have been buried at work. Fun to debate planes. Here is a westbound trip, 1100 nm, 50 knots on the nose on the first half, down to 20 knots on the nose the second half. Leaving Savannah GA, I normally would have stopped for cheap fuel in Denver, but with the main runway closed, and high chance of TS, went for the severe clear airport with on-airport dining and still sub $3 Jet A. I didn't even get a full top off, and landed with 460 pounds. Could have probably glided into Salt Lake City. The plane has more range than you could almost ever want. I guess this thread started about the Meridian/M500, but you did say the M600 was maybe a 1200 nm real world airplane, and I just commented yes, if you are talking westbound with a headwind. Here ya go ;) Enjoying the thread about the Evolution btw. :peace:

Attachment:
LBFF.jpg


Attachment:
FA.jpg


Attachment:
Fuel.jpg


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