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 Post subject: F-35 Aerial Display At The Paris Air Show
PostPosted: 20 Jun 2017, 14:17 
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Lockheed Martin test pilot Billie Flynn is putting the F-35A through its paces at Le Bourget this week. The flight demonstration is carefully scripted to highlight the kinematic capabilities of the F-35A, particularly its slow-speed handling qualities, according to Flynn.

[youtube]https://youtu.be/PUoa-T_aRjM[/youtube]

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 Post subject: Re: F-35 Aerial Display At The Paris Air Show
PostPosted: 20 Jun 2017, 14:24 
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So much awesome. Here is the assembly line in Texas. Love this jet.

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 Post subject: Re: F-35 Aerial Display At The Paris Air Show
PostPosted: 20 Jun 2017, 20:35 
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Here's an Aviation Week article about the flight demanstration; it has a schematic of the maneuvers: http://m.aviationweek.com/paris-air-sho ... 519908ae4c


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 Post subject: Re: F-35 Aerial Display At The Paris Air Show
PostPosted: 22 Jun 2017, 11:04 
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Thanks for sharing. The comments from the chief pilot really makes you appreciate what is happening with the airplane.

So what would you guess the HP / weight ratio is? :drool:

Rgs

Patrick.


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 Post subject: Re: F-35 Aerial Display At The Paris Air Show
PostPosted: 22 Jun 2017, 16:02 
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Username Protected wrote:
Thanks for sharing. The comments from the chief pilot really makes you appreciate what is happening with the airplane.

So what would you guess the HP / weight ratio is? :drool:

Rgs

Patrick.

At a mid-weight (39,319lbs) it has a thrust to weight ratio of 1.1:1 in afterburner. (at least according to Wikipedia) I'd guess that this demonstration was done in a plane that weighed closer to 32-33K pounds for which the thrust to weight is 1.3:1 in afterburner. That'll push you back in the seat a bit.


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 Post subject: Re: F-35 Aerial Display At The Paris Air Show
PostPosted: 22 Jun 2017, 16:04 
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I didn't find the commentary to be all that helpful in understanding what's going on with the maneuvers. Why are the top two corners of the square loop so impressive?

Also, I've seen plenty of jets power out of the high Alpha pass. It's a cool maneuver, but not particularly unique. All of the US 4th gen fighters could do it too.


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 Post subject: Re: F-35 Aerial Display At The Paris Air Show
PostPosted: 22 Jun 2017, 16:45 
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Why are the top two corners of the square loop so impressive?

The tight turn radius indicates fairly high G at slow speed. The smoothness and precision of the corners indicate good handling qualities at slow speed and high AOA.

The F-22 and F-35 are not the quantum leap in maneuverability that we saw when the F-15 and F-16 came out. These fifth-generation aircraft have somewhat better maneuverability than the fourth-generation but the real advances are in stealth, avionics and weapons. For US, allied, threat and neutral aircraft (in short, all of them), many (most?) of those stealth, avionics and weapons capabilities are classified. Open forum discussions of the relative capabilities of fourth- and fifth-generation aircraft are pure BS because the actual capabilities of the aircraft being discussed are unknown to those doing the pontificating.

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 Post subject: Re: F-35 Aerial Display At The Paris Air Show
PostPosted: 22 Jun 2017, 18:53 
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Kind of a dumb question but out of curiosity anyone know why wasn't an Air Force pilot flying the demo? The aircraft looks like it is assigned to Hill AFB.

I also was wondering if the low speed high AOA maneuvers decrease stealth. I remember reading somewhere the F117 lost its stealth capability in different flight regimes and profiles. Not sure if that was true or bs. All in all looks like an awesome and impressive aircraft.


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 Post subject: Re: F-35 Aerial Display At The Paris Air Show
PostPosted: 22 Jun 2017, 23:21 
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Kind of a dumb question but out of curiosity anyone know why wasn't an Air Force pilot flying the demo? The aircraft looks like it is assigned to Hill AFB.

I don't know the details of this show but sometimes who flies the demo depends which entity is advertising the aircraft. Is it the USAF using it as a recruiting tool or is the contractor trying to sell more airplanes? The Paris Airshow is a trade show to sell hardware not entertainment.

During testing, the contractor and the government share some of the aircraft. The government tests to determine whether the aircraft meets spec and to develop tactics, training programs and maintenance practices. The contractor tests to "improve the breed" and to meet certain contract requirements and, yes, to sell airplanes. The government usually supports the contractor's sales efforts because, the more F-35s the contractor sells to others, the cheaper the US F-35s will be.

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 Post subject: Re: F-35 Aerial Display At The Paris Air Show
PostPosted: 22 Jun 2017, 23:42 
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Seems to me like the last manned fighter to be built. It's very maneuverable, but I'm not sure why. Don't they engage the enemy 100+ miles away?

Kevin


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 Post subject: Re: F-35 Aerial Display At The Paris Air Show
PostPosted: 23 Jun 2017, 06:16 
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Seems to me like the last manned fighter to be built. It's very maneuverable, but I'm not sure why. Don't they engage the enemy 100+ miles away?

Engaging at long range is the plan and killing the bad guys before they even know we are there is a wonderful thing. It doesn't alway work out that way because stuff happens. Bad guys slip thru the sensor coverage. If there are lots of bad guys, we may not be able to kill them all before the range collapses to a visual fight. Rules of engagement may require a visual ID before shooting.

Grunts plan to kill other grunts at long range, but they still carry knives. Ships plan to kill over the horizon but they still have close-in weapons. Fighter pilots plan to kill beyond visual range but still need a gun and a jet that can maneuver. War is messy and eventually ends up eyeball-to-eyeball. We must be able to fight in close and win.

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 Post subject: Re: F-35 Aerial Display At The Paris Air Show
PostPosted: 23 Jun 2017, 08:58 
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When McDonnell built the F-4 and declared that turning dogfights were a thing of the past, they hadn't anticipated the rules of engagement that would require visual ID to be made before firing.

Makes me wonder how the air war in Vietnam would have gone if US planes were allowed to shoot when they were still BVR.


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 Post subject: Re: F-35 Aerial Display At The Paris Air Show
PostPosted: 23 Jun 2017, 09:53 
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Username Protected wrote:
Seems to me like the last manned fighter to be built. It's very maneuverable, but I'm not sure why. Don't they engage the enemy 100+ miles away?

Engaging at long range is the plan and killing the bad guys before they even know we are there is a wonderful thing. It doesn't alway work out that way because stuff happens. Bad guys slip thru the sensor coverage. If there are lots of bad guys, we may not be able to kill them all before the range collapses to a visual fight. Rules of engagement may require a visual ID before shooting.

Grunts plan to kill other grunts at long range, but they still carry knives. Ships plan to kill over the horizon but they still have close-in weapons. Fighter pilots plan to kill beyond visual range but still need a gun and a jet that can maneuver. War is messy and eventually ends up eyeball-to-eyeball. We must be able to fight in close and win.



John,

Thank you for the explanation.
Kevin

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 Post subject: Re: F-35 Aerial Display At The Paris Air Show
PostPosted: 23 Jun 2017, 15:27 
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Username Protected wrote:
When McDonnell built the F-4 and declared that turning dogfights were a thing of the past, they hadn't anticipated the rules of engagement that would require visual ID to be made before firing.

Makes me wonder how the air war in Vietnam would have gone if US planes were allowed to shoot when they were still BVR.


Not much different. First of all there was the problem of different services and commands flying different missions in the same airspace-hence positive VID until fairly late in the war.

Secondly, was the problem of look down, shoot down in the clutter. Pulse only radar in the F-4B-E series had that problem.

Thirdly, when pulse doppler came into play in the F-4J there was the problem of the frigging thing working and the degraded pulse only capability that came with it.

Then there was the AIM 7 missile itself. Standard doctrine taught at Miramar's F4 RAG was shoot two when you had a solution; the chances of any one actually guiding to the target were less than 50%.

The Sidewinder was fairly reliable and the launch envelope kept expanding in quick succession with new variants but it usually required a turning fight so that became the standard engagement scenario and training and tactics were developed toward that.


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 Post subject: Re: F-35 Aerial Display At The Paris Air Show
PostPosted: 16 Aug 2017, 19:01 
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Username Protected wrote:
Kind of a dumb question but out of curiosity anyone know why wasn't an Air Force pilot flying the demo? The aircraft looks like it is assigned to Hill AFB.



Billie works for LMCO, as does Al Norman; both great guys and good sticks. Had the pleasure to work on the F16 Block 60 project with Billie before I left LMCO. As mentioned before, not uncommon for the contractor to fly their airplane for publicity. Was at an air show in ft worth once where the USAF did an aerial display of an F-16 and LMCO did one of their own.

And I'm sure the bad-assery about the F35 is the stuff we can't see in an aerial display!


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