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24 Feb 2020, 07:12 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


Greenwich AeroGroup



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 Post subject: Skyhawk Jet-A
PostPosted: 09 Jun 2017, 10:24 
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Joined: 11/06/10
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Location: 6B6 - Stow, Massachusetts
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http://www.flyingmag.com/diesel-cessna- ... SOC&dom=fb

Who wants one? Will this change the training market/costs?

Tim


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 Post subject: Re: Skyhawk Jet-A
PostPosted: 09 Jun 2017, 10:37 
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Location: Jackson, MS (KHKS)
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Given the success seen with all the other aviation diesels ... I don't want one til they have run a few dozen engines to TBO.

Suspect it will be popular overseas and perhaps with very high volume fleet operators in the US (ERAU, UND)

Will it change training? No. PITI on a $400K trainer is going to overwhelm any fuel cost savings, even if they're running the things on off-road kerosene at $1/gal. If there was a market for low cost training, a refurb steam gauge 172N running mogas would be the way to go.


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 Post subject: Re: Skyhawk Jet-A
PostPosted: 09 Jun 2017, 11:00 
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Username Protected wrote:
Given the success seen with all the other aviation diesels ... I don't want one til they have run a few dozen engines to TBO.

Suspect it will be popular overseas and perhaps with very high volume fleet operators in the US (ERAU, UND)

Will it change training? No. PITI on a $400K trainer is going to overwhelm any fuel cost savings, even if they're running the things on off-road kerosene at $1/gal. If there was a market for low cost training, a refurb steam gauge 172N running mogas would be the way to go.


Actually, this model of engine has had a few hundred run to TBR already. It was certified a decade ago and has been used in Diamond planes as a trainer, and converted C172 in Africa for a long time.

In terms of the trainer, I was thinking how does this pencil out compared to a new avgas C172. I was not comparing to an old one...

Tim


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 Post subject: Re: Skyhawk Jet-A
PostPosted: 09 Jun 2017, 11:01 
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Joined: 04/28/09
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Aircraft: C-310K
Diesels WILL make an impact on GA if...

A new diesel engine can be STC'd and installed in lieu of a gasoline engine at prices within OH cost of existing engines.

Only then does the economics make sense.


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 Post subject: Re: Skyhawk Jet-A
PostPosted: 09 Jun 2017, 11:04 
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Username Protected wrote:
Diesels WILL make an impact on GA if...

A new diesel engine can be STC'd and installed in lieu of a gasoline engine at prices within OH cost of existing engines.

Only then does the economics make sense.


Here is a "like new" one: http://redhawk.redbirdflight.com/
And the total cost is very comparable to doing it with avgas.
The FWF package only I believe is $54K. This is only about 10K more then avgas.

Tim


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 Post subject: Re: Skyhawk Jet-A
PostPosted: 09 Jun 2017, 11:10 
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Username Protected wrote:
Diesels WILL make an impact on GA if...

A new diesel engine can be STC'd and installed in lieu of a gasoline engine at prices within OH cost of existing engines.

Only then does the economics make sense.


Here is a "like new" one: http://redhawk.redbirdflight.com/
And the total cost is very comparable to doing it with avgas.
The FWF package only I believe is $54K. This is only about 10K more then avgas.

Tim


$54k is getting towards "more reasonable" realm...but it's still not close enough to make meaningful impact.

a C-172 overhaul is ~ $17-$22k...that's the number the diesel install needs to be reasonably close to...otherwise, it really doesn't make sense.

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 Post subject: Re: Skyhawk Jet-A
PostPosted: 09 Jun 2017, 11:18 
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Location: Jackson, MS (KHKS)
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Quote:
In terms of the trainer, I was thinking how does this pencil out compared to a new avgas C172. I was not comparing to an old one...

Tim


Let's assume you finance $400K at 30 years/7year balloon at 5% - your payment is $2200/month

Commercial Insurance at 5% of hull value is $1700/month

Overhaul reserve is $1600/month

Maintenance is $1000/month

School overhead plus Desired profit is $2000/month

Avgas plane (at 100 hours/month, 10 gal/hr, $5/hr) is $5000/month
JetA plane (at same utilization 6 gal/hr /$3/gal) is $1800/month

So all in costs before fuel are $8500/month - avgas puts it to $13,500 a month so you need to charge $135/hr and make 1200 hours/year. JetA basically brings you down to $100/hr

Assume only 600 hours/year utilization. Overhaul reserve drops to $800 but otherwise unchanged. Now your costs before fuel are $7700/month. Add 50 hrs of Avgas and you're up to $10k/month for 50 hours. $200/hr. Jet A (7700 + 800) gets you to $8500 for 50 hours = $170/hr.

If Avgas is unavailable or $14/gal .... or if you just wanna keep your cadets in Malaysia instead of Arizona ... I can see the JetA 172 making a lot of sense. If your institution flies 20,000 hours/year of primary training ... yep, makes sense.

For my local flight school at KMBO. Meh. Might take their G1000 rate from $175 to $165/hr.


Last edited on 09 Jun 2017, 11:22, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Skyhawk Jet-A
PostPosted: 09 Jun 2017, 11:18 
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Joined: 02/25/13
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Location: Jacksonville, FL (KCRG)
Aircraft: 1994 Bonanza F33A
Username Protected wrote:
Diesels WILL make an impact on GA if...

A new diesel engine can be STC'd and installed in lieu of a gasoline engine at prices within OH cost of existing engines.

Only then does the economics make sense.


Here is a "like new" one: http://redhawk.redbirdflight.com/
And the total cost is very comparable to doing it with avgas.
The FWF package only I believe is $54K. This is only about 10K more then avgas.

Tim


interesting but it has a max landing weight of 2100 and a EW of 1622. Not sure of the original skyhawk numbers but I thought you got more than 480 pounds of people.

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 Post subject: Re: Skyhawk Jet-A
PostPosted: 09 Jun 2017, 11:25 
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Joined: 11/06/10
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Company: Looking
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Aircraft: SR22
Username Protected wrote:
Quote:
In terms of the trainer, I was thinking how does this pencil out compared to a new avgas C172. I was not comparing to an old one...

Tim


Let's assume you finance $400K at 30 years/7year balloon at 5% - your payment is $2200/month

Commercial Insurance at 5% of hull value is $1700/month

Overhaul reserve is $1600/month

Maintenance is $1000/month

School overhead plus Desired profit is $2000/month

Avgas plane (at 100 hours/month, 10 gal/hr, $5/hr) is $5000/month
JetA plane (at same utilization 6 gal/hr /$3/gal) is $1800/month

So all in costs before fuel are $8500/month - avgas puts it to $13,500 a month so you need to charge $135/hr and make 1200 hours/year. JetA basically brings you down to $100/hr

Assume only 600 hours/year utilization. Overhaul reserve drops to $800 but otherwise unchanged. Now your costs before fuel are $7700/month. Add 50 hrs of Avgas and you're up to $10k/month for 50 hours. $200/hr. Jet A (7700 + 800) gets you to $8500 for 50 hours = $170/hr.

If Avgas is unavailable or $14/gal .... or if you just wanna keep your cadets in Malaysia instead of Arizona ... I can see the JetA 172 making a lot of sense. If your institution flies 20,000 hours/year of primary training ... yep, makes sense.

For my local flight school at KMBO. Meh. Might take their G1000 rate from $175 to $165/hr.


So what your are saying is, if you are buying new. It makes sense.

Tim


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 Post subject: Re: Skyhawk Jet-A
PostPosted: 09 Jun 2017, 11:26 
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Username Protected wrote:
interesting but it has a max landing weight of 2100 and a EW of 1622. Not sure of the original skyhawk numbers but I thought you got more than 480 pounds of people.


I know the MTOW and MLW changed over the models, but I do not know any of the details. I am pretty sure the changes coincided with larger/more powerful engines.

Tim


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 Post subject: Re: Skyhawk Jet-A
PostPosted: 09 Jun 2017, 11:46 
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Username Protected wrote:

So what your are saying is, if you are buying new. It makes sense.

Tim


For a high utilization, high turnover fleet - yes.

For an FBO that has three 172's that are flying 500 hours/year ... given the additional maintenance learning curve, fueling, CFI changes, etc ... I don't see it.


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 Post subject: Re: Skyhawk Jet-A
PostPosted: 09 Jun 2017, 11:49 
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Username Protected wrote:

a C-172 overhaul is ~ $17-$22k...that's the number the diesel install needs to be reasonably close to...otherwise, it really doesn't make sense.


Sell your midtime FWF to an RV builder for $15-20K instead of waiting for overhaul. At that point it might make sense in a high use environment.


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 Post subject: Re: Skyhawk Jet-A
PostPosted: 09 Jun 2017, 12:15 
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The question that needs to be asked is will it run LOP :hide:


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 Post subject: Re: Skyhawk Jet-A
PostPosted: 09 Jun 2017, 22:09 
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Location: Queen Creek, AZ
Aircraft: Cessna 120 (project)
I'm curious if anything has changed but the name from Thielert to Continental...The TAE engines had a lot of Airworthiness Limitation items that meant big money every 600 hours or so. Gearbox, High and Low pressure Fuel Pumps, Alternators, etc. TAE was also very protective of all the special tools and computer program required to reset the FADEC fault lights...if you didn't go to their factory authorized training class, you had no hope of getting the opportunity of buying the tools. CMG may be more liberal with those.


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 Post subject: Re: Skyhawk Jet-A
PostPosted: 09 Jun 2017, 22:50 
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Username Protected wrote:

So all in costs before fuel are $8500/month - avgas puts it to $13,500 a month so you need to charge $135/hr and make 1200 hours/year. JetA basically brings you down to $100/hr


This is the win, right here.

G1000 Skyhawks currently fetch $150/hr. You just added 35% fat to the FBO steak, which is gigantic. Our G1000 172SP ran about 120 tach hours per month, and was consistently a winner on the flightline.

The trouble will be mis-fuelling, plus that is one hell of a high hull amount to insure for a primary trainer. We were at $1600/mo for 300K, so your numbers look right on, but man.. there are going to be a lot of skyhawks getting reassembled from shrapnel with a half-mil in hull value hanging out there making it worthwhile to repair. :bugeye:


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