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22 Feb 2020, 14:43 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


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 Post subject: Re: Runway we don't need no stinking runway.
PostPosted: 13 Jun 2017, 16:43 
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Did anyone else watch the control surfaces? The rudder stays pretty neutral throughout and he was trying to use ailerons to level the wings.


Classic case of wallet thicker than the logbook. 200K worth of airplane, 5K worth of training.

Happens a lot up here.


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 Post subject: Re: Runway we don't need no stinking runway.
PostPosted: 13 Jun 2017, 17:15 
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I guess he had the power so far back he couldn't add throttle fast enough to prevent the stall / spin? You would think that almost instinctive for a high-time pilot.

Power had little or nothing to do with it. In fact, at that high AOA, he was at a relatively high power setting. He was right on the edge of a stall (it was a slow flying contest) and he hit a gust (according to the video) that slowed him to just below stall speed. What probably actually happened is the gust increased the AOA just enough to stall the wing. Or, he could have tried to squeeze one knot less speed out of the airplane and flown the wing above the stall AOA with smidgen too much back stick.

Regardless of the cause, the wing went from just a hair below stall AOA to little above stall AOA. To save it he needed to a) step on the right rudder to keep the wings level, b) release a little back pressure to reduce AOA and get the wing flying again and c) keep the ailerons neutral so adverse yaw didn't make things worse. He didn't do ANY of those things. Throughout the event, the rudder stays neutral to slightly left, the elevator is at or near full up and the ailerons are full deflection to the right.


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 Post subject: Re: Runway we don't need no stinking runway.
PostPosted: 13 Jun 2017, 19:18 
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I'd love to hear from the insurance brokers on BT about this.

But airplane crashes in Alaska are commonplace. I'd reckon that the risk profile of bush flying, combined with the "Alaska factor" makes for VERY expensive insurance for an operator like this pilot.

There are plenty of ways to crash an airplane. More than I can count, in fact. And there are lots and lots of ways to crash an airplane when you think you've taken reasonable precautions.

But hot-dogging in an airplane? The risk/reward scale is never in balance. And eventually the "oohs" and "ahhs" become "DOH!s"

jh


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 Post subject: Re: Runway we don't need no stinking runway.
PostPosted: 13 Jun 2017, 20:37 
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Username Protected wrote:
I guess he had the power so far back he couldn't add throttle fast enough to prevent the stall / spin? You would think that almost instinctive for a high-time pilot.

Power had little or nothing to do with it. In fact, at that high AOA, he was at a relatively high power setting. He was right on the edge of a stall (it was a slow flying contest) and he hit a gust (according to the video) that slowed him to just below stall speed. What probably actually happened is the gust increased the AOA just enough to stall the wing. Or, he could have tried to squeeze one knot less speed out of the airplane and flown the wing above the stall AOA with smidgen too much back stick.

Regardless of the cause, the wing went from just a hair below stall AOA to little above stall AOA. To save it he needed to a) step on the right rudder to keep the wings level, b) release a little back pressure to reduce AOA and get the wing flying again and c) keep the ailerons neutral so adverse yaw didn't make things worse. He didn't do ANY of those things. Throughout the event, the rudder stays neutral to slightly left, the elevator is at or near full up and the ailerons are full deflection to the right.


Power in a Cub will restore airflow over the wing, and probably enough lift to MITIGATE the situation. Of course, reducing AOA is the textbook answer. But at that altitude, I'm not sure just forward stick would have yielded the desired result.

jh

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 Post subject: Re: Runway we don't need no stinking runway.
PostPosted: 13 Jun 2017, 20:55 
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"Did anyone else watch the control surfaces? The rudder stays pretty neutral throughout and he was trying to use ailerons to level the wings."

Yup; he did exactly the wrong thing. He needed lots of R Rudder and shouldn't have touched the ailerons...

Best,

Tom


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 Post subject: Re: Runway we don't need no stinking runway.
PostPosted: 14 Jun 2017, 00:10 
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Username Protected wrote:
Power had little or nothing to do with it. In fact, at that high AOA, he was at a relatively high power setting. He was right on the edge of a stall (it was a slow flying contest) and he hit a gust (according to the video) that slowed him to just below stall speed. What probably actually happened is the gust increased the AOA just enough to stall the wing. Or, he could have tried to squeeze one knot less speed out of the airplane and flown the wing above the stall AOA with smidgen too much back stick.

Regardless of the cause, the wing went from just a hair below stall AOA to little above stall AOA. To save it he needed to a) step on the right rudder to keep the wings level, b) release a little back pressure to reduce AOA and get the wing flying again and c) keep the ailerons neutral so adverse yaw didn't make things worse. He didn't do ANY of those things. Throughout the event, the rudder stays neutral to slightly left, the elevator is at or near full up and the ailerons are full deflection to the right.


Power in a Cub will restore airflow over the wing, and probably enough lift to MITIGATE the situation. Of course, reducing AOA is the textbook answer. But at that altitude, I'm not sure just forward stick would have yielded the desired result.


Sorry, I was discussing the cause of the stall and how to un-stall the wing. He wouldn't have had to relax much back pressure at all, just enough to get the wing below the stall AOA and back to the edge where he was before the stall. Adding power certainly would have cushioned the descent. Depending on how fast he reacted and how much power that Cub had, if he had relaxed a little back pressure, kept the wings level with the rudder, held the ailerons neutral and added power, he would have gotten somewhere between a dropped in, very hard touch and go and a "wow, great save." If he didn't add any power but did all the stick and rudder work correctly, it still would have yielded a better result that what he got.

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 Post subject: Re: Runway we don't need no stinking runway.
PostPosted: 14 Jun 2017, 12:27 
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I'm kind of surprised they do this event at such low altitude. It wouldn't be that hard to set up spotters so they could do it at 500 or 1000 feet to give a safety margin. If they can do it for aerobatic competitions, they can do it for this.


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 Post subject: Re: Runway we don't need no stinking runway.
PostPosted: 14 Jun 2017, 13:44 
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Username Protected wrote:
I'm kind of surprised they do this event at such low altitude. It wouldn't be that hard to set up spotters so they could do it at 500 or 1000 feet to give a safety margin. If they can do it for aerobatic competitions, they can do it for this.

If this had happened at 500', he'd be dead (maybe not at 1000, though). Maybe they should do it at 5 inches over a measured distance. If you go touch the ground or go over 12" you're disqualified.

As much as I'm a big fan of the backcountry and I've enjoyed what little flying I've done there, I'll be glad when this fad has played out.


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 Post subject: Re: Runway we don't need no stinking runway.
PostPosted: 14 Jun 2017, 13:56 
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Username Protected wrote:
I'm kind of surprised they do this event at such low altitude. It wouldn't be that hard to set up spotters so they could do it at 500 or 1000 feet to give a safety margin. If they can do it for aerobatic competitions, they can do it for this.

If this had happened at 500', he'd be dead (maybe not at 1000, though). Maybe they should do it at 5 inches over a measured distance. If you go touch the ground or go over 12" you're disqualified.

As much as I'm a big fan of the backcountry and I've enjoyed what little flying I've done there, I'll be glad when this fad has played out.


Given the way he executed the maneuver, I suppose you're right. Someone who is better trained to recognize the beginnings of a stall/spin could easily recover with 500' of leeway in a plane like that.

I wonder how much altitude that plane loses in a spin? In the Champ, I could do about 2 1/2 - 3 turns in 1000'. I never did test and see how much altitude would be lost if I started the recovery as soon as the wing stalled and started to rotate, though.

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 Post subject: Re: Runway we don't need no stinking runway.
PostPosted: 15 Jun 2017, 09:56 
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Username Protected wrote:
I'm kind of surprised they do this event at such low altitude. It wouldn't be that hard to set up spotters so they could do it at 500 or 1000 feet to give a safety margin. If they can do it for aerobatic competitions, they can do it for this.

If this had happened at 500', he'd be dead (maybe not at 1000, though). Maybe they should do it at 5 inches over a measured distance. If you go touch the ground or go over 12" you're disqualified.

As much as I'm a big fan of the backcountry and I've enjoyed what little flying I've done there, I'll be glad when this fad has played out.


Of course, the flying done in the video is not backcountry flying.

This is competition or exhibition "ragged edge" flying similar to lots of competition flying in that the envelope is constantly pushed to outdo your buddy, other competitors, or wow a crowd. It comes with an inherent and acknowledged risk.

Backcountry flying, when done as it should, is destination flying. It comes nowhere near the edge of the performance envelope like the OPs video.

I will admit, however, that there are a bunch of "backcountry guys" that "chase the dragon" in that they are always trying to find ever-increasingly risky and marginal conditions in which to recapture that first buzz or outdo their buddy. Not my cup of tea. The challenge is a neat part of it, but its really all about the destination for us..... camping, fishing, hunting..

In fact, "strip bagging" is highly discouraged in our local wilderness area unless in a training situation.
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 Post subject: Re: Runway we don't need no stinking runway.
PostPosted: 15 Jun 2017, 10:02 
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Of course, the flying done in the video is not backcountry flying.

That's what i was thinking. The guy i know who does the most fly-in fishing uses a 180hp 172. It's a little amusing to see a couple super cub guys land and high-five each other like they accomplished something, then they see the skyhawk sitting there with hip waders drying on the tail


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 Post subject: Re: Runway we don't need no stinking runway.
PostPosted: 15 Jun 2017, 10:24 
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Of course, the flying done in the video is not backcountry flying.

That's what i was thinking. The guy i know who does the most fly-in fishing uses a 180hp 172. It's a little amusing to see a couple super cub guys land and high-five each other like they accomplished something, then they see the skyhawk sitting there with hip waders drying on the tail


Yep, see it all the time. ..... Its usually those guys that need to do a go-around at Johnson Creek in their 35 bush wheel monster at the super cub fly in.

Johnson Creek is 3400 feet long.

http://youtu.be/qM1NSw36lXE

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 Post subject: Re: Runway we don't need no stinking runway.
PostPosted: 15 Jun 2017, 11:29 
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A 180 HP 172 ran off the side of the 150' wide runway at Smiley Creek yesterday. Pilot said a crosswind gust hit him.

There are pilots who just shouldn't be there.


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 Post subject: Re: Runway we don't need no stinking runway.
PostPosted: 15 Jun 2017, 12:49 
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Username Protected wrote:

Yep, see it all the time. ..... Its usually those guys that need to do a go-around at Johnson Creek in their 35 bush wheel monster at the super cub fly in.

[/youtube]


You mean this guy at Johnson Creek from 2012, can't land a Husky in 3500 feet. Notice the top of the pine tree wrapped around the top of the left wing in the third pic and the folks on the deck bailing for safety. He survived this go around, came back around and it took him until the very end of the runway to get stopped.


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 Post subject: Re: Runway we don't need no stinking runway.
PostPosted: 15 Jun 2017, 12:55 
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Username Protected wrote:
Of course, the flying done in the video is not backcountry flying.

That's what i was thinking. The guy i know who does the most fly-in fishing uses a 180hp 172. It's a little amusing to see a couple super cub guys land and high-five each other like they accomplished something, then they see the skyhawk sitting there with hip waders drying on the tail


You should see some of the guys shake their heads when a big ol' tip tanked Bonanza rolls into some (most?) of the same areas.

Makes for entertainment at the campfire at least.
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