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 Post subject: First flight in the CJ2 !
PostPosted: 03 Jun 2017, 10:06 
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Had my first chance to exercise my new CJ type rating yesterday. The owner of a Scottsdale based CJ2 was doing a day trip to BJC (Jeffco) and invited me along. It was so nice to just fly rather than the constant barrage of problems they throw at you in the sim. I thought of this as loft training and I learned a lot.

Flying the airplane isn't hard, it's the button pushing that requires skill. I only know the proline stuff from what I learned in the sim and this CJ has the file server (charts) and that part was all new to me. Navigating Collins/Honeywell interfaces is a totally different world from Garmin but except for a few weirdisms, its not all that hard , it just seems slow and clunky right now. I didn't use the Vnav features in the sim so yesterday was my first introduction to it. We got a few crossing restrictions and I FELL IN LOVE WITH THE GLIDESLOPE FEATURE - that was so cool!

We tankered fuel up there because the Signature cartel is the only option at BJC, so it was hot and we were heavy coming out of SDL. It was ISA +9 in the climb. Dave (owner) said the CJ's engines (Williams) are dramatically less powerful at higher temps but I was still very impressed with the power up high. We climbed right to 410 and it took maybe 3-4 minutes to accelerate to redline and then we needed to start pulling the power back to avoid overspeed. At 410 we were burning 810PPH@400kts - same exact fuel/NM as my KA at 230!

Ventilation/temp control in the cockpit was awesome - the Citation II isn't nearly as good in this aspect. I know it is not fair to compare the Citation II to the CJ2 - if you buy a pack of smokes, they'll throw in a Citation II, a CJ2 costs $2.5M. But as long as we are on that subject, the Citation and the CJ aren't in the same league. They don't feel the same, the CJ feels modern, the Citation feels old. The CJ feels powerful all the way to TOC, the Citation starts to feel pooped in the low 30's. The CJ Autopilot is friggin' awesome, the Citation AP is just OK. I was thinking the ProLine avionics were a major bummer and the idea of buying a Citation V and upgrading to a garmin G600/GTN750 suite was tempting because of this. I don't feel like that anymore, Proline stuff is pretty cool and I'll figure it out. I don't see where Garmin offers anything I absolutely need that the Proline doesn't already have (I will however dearly miss Syn-Vision)

I really loved the descents in the CJ. Because of terrain and routing you tend to get dumped into SDL coming from the North. This isn't a problem in the KA, I can get that thing to fall out of the sky but I often think "I'd never get away with this in a jet". Not so in the CJ, it came right down without speed brakes and had no problem slowing to flap speed. I never saw the throttle against the backstops.

I got a C500 type rating in December last year and just finished the CJ type rating last month. If you look at the cockpits you'd think the airplanes are pretty much the same but in my opinion, they aren't even close. The switches pretty much look the same but the functions behind them are considerably different. The CJ systems are so well thought out for a single pilot. Yes, you can fly the Citation II with a SP exemption but it is never going to be nearly as easy as the CJ.

So the big decision is (was) do I trade the KA in for a legacy Citation now and spend probably 1.5X more to operate it -or- do I wait and buy a CJ2 and spend the same to operate it as the KA? I had no question after the type rating and this flight just re enforced the decision, I'll save my pennies and wait until I can afford a CJ2. For now, I'm planning to lease the CJ2 for longer trips. I'll hire a pilot to come with me for the first 25+ hours or maybe more depending on my learning curve.

MH, I know "you love you some Citation II" - get your goodbye's ready, I'm gonna share the good word with you and save your soul my Brother.

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John Lockhart
Phoenix, AZ
Ridgway, CO


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 Post subject: Re: First flight in the CJ2 !
PostPosted: 03 Jun 2017, 10:24 
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Location: Walterboro, SC. KRBW
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Wait and buy the CJ2


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 Post subject: Re: First flight in the CJ2 !
PostPosted: 03 Jun 2017, 10:49 
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Are you gonna buy a III? Do you think the prices have hit bottom yet?

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Phoenix, AZ
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 Post subject: Re: First flight in the CJ2 !
PostPosted: 03 Jun 2017, 11:05 
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Username Protected wrote:
Are you gonna buy a III? Do you think the prices have hit bottom yet?


Prices are high at the moment IMHO, I think we need a little market easing and then it's time to jump in.

CJ3+, come on John, I need the range. You buy it, I'll fly it. :peace:

Great write up. What is the real world range/payload of the CJ2?

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 Post subject: Re: First flight in the CJ2 !
PostPosted: 03 Jun 2017, 11:18 
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I'd love a III. Did you hear that they just flew a III with the Tamarac winglets from Texas to Paris with just one stop!

Maybe Alan can speak to the range/payload, I'm afraid I'd just step in it if I commented.

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John Lockhart
Phoenix, AZ
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 Post subject: Re: First flight in the CJ2 !
PostPosted: 03 Jun 2017, 11:35 
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Username Protected wrote:
What is the real world range/payload of the CJ2?


Real world range on the 2 is DXR-COS. Full fuel payload is around 780lbs.

FL450 is a game changer for max range flights.

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 Post subject: Re: First flight in the CJ2 !
PostPosted: 03 Jun 2017, 11:42 
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JL, don't fly a 2+ or 3. The integrated PL21 avionics and FADEC will make the 2 feel old.

What FMS/GPS did the 2 you flew have?

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 Post subject: Re: First flight in the CJ2 !
PostPosted: 03 Jun 2017, 12:17 
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If I step up to a Jet, I want more range, range is the key for me.

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 Post subject: Re: First flight in the CJ2 !
PostPosted: 03 Jun 2017, 13:16 
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If I step up to a Jet, I want more range, range is the key for me.


One word , son.....Boeing!

:hide: Edit: never mind, no single pilot waiver...

Jeff

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Jeff

soloed in a land of Superhomers/1959 Cessna 150, retired with Proline 21/ CJ4.


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 Post subject: Re: First flight in the CJ2 !
PostPosted: 03 Jun 2017, 13:24 
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Username Protected wrote:
If I step up to a Jet, I want more range, range is the key for me.


This Citation will do what you want for the low 2s -
http://www.jetaviva.com/inventory/1492185918/Cessna/Citation-750-X/750-0077

You have enough money left over to employ a SIC.

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 Post subject: Re: First flight in the CJ2 !
PostPosted: 03 Jun 2017, 14:12 
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What's about to bite that plane that makes it so cheap?


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 Post subject: Re: First flight in the CJ2 !
PostPosted: 03 Jun 2017, 15:10 
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Username Protected wrote:
What's about to bite that plane that makes it so cheap?


Cessna estimates a 5 year old X+ will cost $1.5MM to run for 400 hours. Not including cost of capital or depreciation.

An older bird like this will probably cost $2MM or more for 400 hours, or in the range of $4,000 - $5,000 per hour.

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 Post subject: Re: First flight in the CJ2 !
PostPosted: 03 Jun 2017, 16:59 
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Username Protected wrote:
What's about to bite that plane that makes it so cheap?


Cessna estimates a 5 year old X+ will cost $1.5MM to run for 400 hours. Not including cost of capital or depreciation.

An older bird like this will probably cost $2MM or more for 400 hours, or in the range of $4,000 - $5,000 per hour.


10x the cost per hour of a PC12, I'll be surprised if they get 2.3!
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 Post subject: Re: First flight in the CJ2 !
PostPosted: 03 Jun 2017, 17:55 
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Username Protected wrote:

Cessna estimates a 5 year old X+ will cost $1.5MM to run for 400 hours. Not including cost of capital or depreciation.

An older bird like this will probably cost $2MM or more for 400 hours, or in the range of $4,000 - $5,000 per hour.


10x the cost per hour of a PC12, I'll be surprised if they get 2.3!

It costs $400 to $500 per hour to operate a PC12 (incl. engine reserve)? I would have guessed significantly more.
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 Post subject: Re: First flight in the CJ2 !
PostPosted: 06 Jun 2017, 13:04 
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Location: Eden Prairie, MN / Scottsdale, AZ
Aircraft: 2016 Cirrus SR22 G5
Great write up John ...sorry I missed you last time I was in Scottsdale. KC mentioned you showed up at the Living Room after I had left ....my condo is right off market street. Hope to catch you next time I'm in town (when temp is below 100 :) )

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