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 Post subject: Re: First flight in the CJ2 !
PostPosted: 07 Jun 2017, 20:01 
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Is the panel on the newer jets really worth the millions more? a g600 and a gtn750 is pretty sweet. Vnav is really the only feature you get with the integrated flight decks right?

The extra few million on a cj2 is a lot of money tied up in a depreciating asset. Other than burn less fuel, what does it do that an old Bravo with a GTN will not?


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 Post subject: Re: First flight in the CJ2 !
PostPosted: 07 Jun 2017, 20:09 
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Username Protected wrote:
Is the panel on the newer jets really worth the millions more? a g600 and a gtn750 is pretty sweet. Vnav is really the only feature you get with the integrated flight decks right?

The extra few million on a cj2 is a lot of money tied up in a depreciating asset. Other than burn less fuel, what does it do that an old Bravo with a GTN will not?


Sadly, between Universal, Garmin, all the Collins stuff you don't even get vnav!


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 Post subject: Re: First flight in the CJ2 !
PostPosted: 07 Jun 2017, 21:54 
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In the old PL4 we had vnav. In the PL21, I also have ADS-B, XM Weather, WAAS/LPV and synthetic vision. It is a pretty nice setup.


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 Post subject: Re: First flight in the CJ2 !
PostPosted: 07 Jun 2017, 22:01 
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Username Protected wrote:
Is the panel on the newer jets really worth the millions more? a g600 and a gtn750 is pretty sweet. Vnav is really the only feature you get with the integrated flight decks right?

The extra few million on a cj2 is a lot of money tied up in a depreciating asset. Other than burn less fuel, what does it do that an old Bravo with a GTN will not?


Actually a huge difference. The panels look the same but the systems behind the switches are way better and easier in the CJ. Flying a legacy Citation single pilot is more than I want to take on (I recently got type rated in both to understand this exact question). It's all fine until it's not fine and I honestly don't think I could keep up (single pilot) in a tough emergency in the legacy jets - doing it in the CJ was tough enough. I'm pretty sure I could pass the C500 SP checkride but on an everyday basis I'm just not ready to commit to being that good.

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 Post subject: Re: First flight in the CJ2 !
PostPosted: 07 Jun 2017, 22:55 
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Besides avionics, what is easier in the new jets in an emergency?


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 Post subject: Re: First flight in the CJ2 !
PostPosted: 08 Jun 2017, 00:08 
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Username Protected wrote:
Besides avionics, what is easier in the new jets in an emergency?


Many systems are improved and much much reliable. Pressurization system for one. C550 uses an ACM which is failure prone. CJ uses simple valves and precoolers.

And don't discount avionics. Avionics failures have lead to many accidents. PL21 is much more robust and redundant.

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 Post subject: Re: First flight in the CJ2 !
PostPosted: 08 Jun 2017, 10:30 
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The difference in the avionics might be a difficult sell if the owner and the pilot are not the same person. The difference between single pilot workload in a typically equipped 501/551 and an M2/CJ3+ (et al) is so substantial as to be difficult to articulate. I always maintain a high level of self-awareness vis-a-vis anxiety levels, and I'm speechless about it's lowness even in the most complex situations. I didn't always feel this way, but I've become an evangelistic convert.

It does VNAV.

I LOVE spending OPM.


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 Post subject: Re: First flight in the CJ2 !
PostPosted: 08 Jun 2017, 11:24 
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MH and I were talking about an arrival the other day. Look at KDAL, page two of the BACHR FOUR arrival. The thought of this arrival SP in a jet without good, well understood avionics intimidates me. You could say "well John if this bothers you, maybe you shouldn't fly a jet", maybe you are right! It is not that hard to fly but if I got surprised by it, ATC was super busy, I'm not 100% that day, I'm dealing with icing checklist etc and I'm a little slow interfacing with avionics, a cockpit designed for two pilots could get ahead of me (or almost as bad, I'm barely caught up and feeling the anxiety).

A CJ with good avionics is a walk in the park on something like this, a legacy Citation is a handful. I only sign up if I feel it's a walk in the park. I thought about MU2 but bought the KA for the same reason - MU2 is awesome in a lot of areas but the KA is easier to fly.

I'm not coming at this from a giant amount of experience but I do have some. I was a professional pilot in my 20's and early 30's. I've flown with pilots who are better than me and if they decide they can handle it, I don't fault that decision. Reminds me of the Toby Keith song, "I'm not as good as I once was but I'm as good once as I ever was". I have also flown with pilots that aren't as experienced as me and don't know enough about the jet enviroment to know where they'll hit their limitations. Until you've spent a couple thousand hours in a jet, you don't get to experience the combination of events that will produce these challenges. I'm sure I'll still get surprised and get spanked but I my goal is to minimize this - a legacy citation sets me up for it so I'm not going there.

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 Post subject: Re: First flight in the CJ2 !
PostPosted: 08 Jun 2017, 11:57 
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MH and I were talking about an arrival the other day. Look at KDAL, page two of the BACHR FOUR arrival. The thought of this arrival SP in a jet without good, well understood avionics intimidates me. You could say "well John if this bothers you, maybe you shouldn't fly a jet", maybe you are right! It is not that hard to fly but if I got surprised by it, ATC was super busy, I'm not 100% that day, I'm dealing with icing checklist etc and I'm a little slow interfacing with avionics, a cockpit designed for two pilots could get ahead of me (or almost as bad, I'm barely caught up and feeling the anxiety).

A CJ with good avionics is a walk in the park on something like this, a legacy Citation is a handful. I only sign up if I feel it's a walk in the park. I thought about MU2 but bought the KA for the same reason - MU2 is awesome in a lot of areas but the KA is easier to fly.

I'm not coming at this from a giant amount of experience but I do have some. I was a professional pilot in my 20's and early 30's. I've flown with pilots who are better than me and if they decide they can handle it, I don't fault that decision. Reminds me of the Toby Keith song, "I'm not as good as I once was but I'm as good once as I ever was". I have also flown with pilots that aren't as experienced as me and don't know enough about the jet enviroment to know where they'll hit their limitations. Until you've spent a couple thousand hours in a jet, you don't get to experience the combination of events that will produce these challenges. I'm sure I'll still get surprised and get spanked but I my goal is to minimize this - a legacy citation sets me up for it so I'm not going there.


John, I agree. That arrival would be a handful, single pilot with legacy avionics. Many restrictions to comply with. That would be a busy procedure with two pilots. However, with the Proline and I assume Garmin, it is a 10 second load and your crossings and speeds will show on the avionics flight plan/legs. Select vnav and focus on your airspeed restrictions. Much easier! With a crew, it would be even better.


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 Post subject: Re: First flight in the CJ2 !
PostPosted: 08 Jun 2017, 12:04 
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I have a 93 CJ that is a true joy to fly. It is sooooo much easier to fly than my 58P. Jet tech has an STC that replaces the Honeywell FMS with dual 750's. The STC ties the 750's into the HW AP very nicely. The HW EDI is a solid unit. This STC is reasonably priced and transforms the original CJ into an easy step from multi piston or TP to Jet flying.

Flying in the high 30's low 40's is a game changer as its mostly above the weather.

Range is the only problem in early CJ's. 900 west bound and 1100 east bound is about all you are going to get.

John, that arrival would be a piece a cake with a CJ.

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 Post subject: Re: First flight in the CJ2 !
PostPosted: 08 Jun 2017, 12:18 
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MH and I were talking about an arrival the other day. Look at KDAL, page two of the BACHR FOUR arrival. The thought of this arrival SP in a jet without good, well understood avionics intimidates me. You could say "well John if this bothers you, maybe you shouldn't fly a jet", maybe you are right! It is not that hard to fly but if I got surprised by it, ATC was super busy, I'm not 100% that day, I'm dealing with icing checklist etc and I'm a little slow interfacing with avionics, a cockpit designed for two pilots could get ahead of me (or almost as bad, I'm barely caught up and feeling the anxiety).

A CJ with good avionics is a walk in the park on something like this, a legacy Citation is a handful. I only sign up if I feel it's a walk in the park. I thought about MU2 but bought the KA for the same reason - MU2 is awesome in a lot of areas but the KA is easier to fly.

I'm not coming at this from a giant amount of experience but I do have some. I was a professional pilot in my 20's and early 30's. I've flown with pilots who are better than me and if they decide they can handle it, I don't fault that decision. Reminds me of the Toby Keith song, "I'm not as good as I once was but I'm as good once as I ever was". I have also flown with pilots that aren't as experienced as me and don't know enough about the jet enviroment to know where they'll hit their limitations. Until you've spent a couple thousand hours in a jet, you don't get to experience the combination of events that will produce these challenges. I'm sure I'll still get surprised and get spanked but I my goal is to minimize this - a legacy citation sets me up for it so I'm not going there.


JL,
We have never met and all I know about you is what you have shared here on BT. Based on the totality of input so gathered I'd be honored to have you fly my most precious loved ones anytime or place. Honored is not correct. I'd feel comfortable and unworried about their safety in your hands and the aircraft you chose to use.

Your personal analysis and critique is what we should all be capable of doing on each and every flight not just in looking at aircraft to purchase. I do not believe all pilots can with such clarity and directness. Thanks for sharing your thoughts and I believe they could save someone's life someday. Hats off.

Sincerely,
CET

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 Post subject: Re: First flight in the CJ2 !
PostPosted: 08 Jun 2017, 13:04 
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Here's a nice, hybrid S550 I fly once in a while. (Even has freshly OH'ed Pratts, if you can believe that!)

It's a monumental improvement over the KLN-89B and Apollo XIII ADI it used to have.

About a month ago, I diverted to a closer airport due to Wx below mins. A new RNAV STAR was quickly assigned, and I hastily accepted. In retrospect, "unable" was the smart move. (I chose IDLE/SPEEDBRAKES/Vmo/6000FPM)

It would have been a snap with Proline or G3000 (et al,again)

Little things can make big differences!


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 Post subject: Re: First flight in the CJ2 !
PostPosted: 08 Jun 2017, 13:05 
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Quote:
We have never met and all I know about you is what you have shared here on BT. Based on the totality of input so gathered I'd be honored to have you fly my most precious loved ones anytime or place. Honored is not correct. I'd feel comfortable and unworried about their safety in your hands and the aircraft you chose to use.

Your personal analysis and critique is what we should all be capable of doing on each and every flight not just in looking at aircraft to purchase. I do not believe all pilots can with such clarity and directness. Thanks for sharing your thoughts and I believe they could save someone's life someday. Hats off.


Yes, that.

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 Post subject: Re: First flight in the CJ2 !
PostPosted: 08 Jun 2017, 23:07 
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What 550 is that? I thought you could not install a G600 in an aircraft with a gross weight over 12,500

Bill U


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 Post subject: Re: First flight in the CJ2 !
PostPosted: 09 Jun 2017, 08:57 
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Quote:
I've also been thinking about this in terms of my age. I am 52 and I'm not sure why but the clock seems to be spinning faster as I get older.


Not sure why...but it's the truth!

Jeff


When we were 4 years old, a single year contained 25% of our life experiences, really more like 50% since few of us remember our first two years, even when we are 4...

At 10 years a single year was still 10% of our life.

At 25 years old... a year became just 1/25th of our life...

I'm closing on 50 and these 1/50th sized years are really small... they fly by.

Now you know... that's why the clock turns faster... it's a "real perception" as each year becomes a smaller part of our life experiences.

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