So there is apparently a way to extend non program Williams engines to 5k hours.

Anyone know anything about this?

https://skyway-mro.com/flex-program-ove ... fits-fj44/


I thought only Williams could work on Williams engines?

Bumping this.

They must have an STC.

Just like the Petersen MOGAS STC, I doubt Ly/Conti approved of that. Yet it supersedes the manufacturers fuel recommendation in their type certificate. Must be something similar here.

I’m keen to hear feedback too. Been waiting and watching.

Andrew.

Look at the bottom Anthony. They require Williams to do a HSI before its eligible. Off program I have heard Williams charges over 250K EACH for these IF they can work it in (8 month wait times I have heard).

Now if you can find one with BRAND NEW Hots maybe they would take it in the program but I the way I see the program if you want to go on the MORE program you HAVE to do hots right then to qualify whether they are timed out or not.

At least thats how I read it..

Agreed, there's no way around the William's monopoly that I am aware of.

In my opinion and the opinion of several FSDOs I have spoken to, you can use the 5,000 hour TBO on off program Williams without permission from anyone. So I don't particularly see the purpose of FLEX. And I definitely don't see the purpose of any of the Part 91 JT15D TBO extensions.

I think the best situation would be to find an on program Williams that just got hotted and then take it off program.

I don’t see how this can be since Williams classifies the engine events as inspections, unless the FAA is saying they can’t arbitrarily extend TBO’s on certain engines, just because they happen to be on the program.

There are issues with operating past TBO that all operators should consider.

1. Insurance- does skipping an engine maintenance event give your insurance company and out in the event of a loss?

2. Civil Liability- in the event of a rare but horrible event, will the Plaintiff’s attorney use the cost saving strategy of not following the manufacturers recommendations to establish wrongful actions by the defendant (you).

3. Loss of Resale Value- the reality is it is still difficult to sell any aircraft with engines that are past TBO, the reduction in sales price must be subtracted from the perceived savings. This discount is much higher on a Williams powered airplane where the legality and acceptance of doing so is questionable.

Not saying Mike is wrong here, just being devil’s advocate and pointing out some points of concern.

The Flex program requires trend monitoring but also to many buyers that dont know you can go 2,500 from last hot, it gives a perception of credibility that it is on an extension program.

I don’t see how this can be since Williams classifies the engine events as inspections, unless the FAA is saying they can’t arbitrarily extend TBO’s on certain engines, just because they happen to be on the program.

There are issues with operating past TBO that all operators should consider. I don't believe there are any real world issues here. For most part 91 guys, overhauling a well running turbine is financially irrational and doesn't do anything to decrease its already extremely low chance of quitting

1. Insurance- does skipping an engine maintenance event give your insurance company and out in the event of a loss? I don't believe this has ever happened. Policies are contracts and I've never seen this language in there

2. Civil Liability- in the event of a rare but horrible event, will the Plaintiff’s attorney use the cost saving strategy of not following the manufacturers recommendations to establish wrongful actions by the defendant (you). I also don't believe this has ever happened. A crocodile or Martian breaking into my house is also a theoretical possibility but not something I worry about.

3. Loss of Resale Value- the reality is it is still difficult to sell any aircraft with engines that are past TBO, the reduction in sales price must be subtracted from the perceived savings. This discount is much higher on a Williams powered airplane where the legality and acceptance of doing so is questionable. Probably true with newer airplanes but definitely not true with my legacy Citations. Remember net jets ran their engines to 11,200 hours without any overhauls on the cold section. Everyone wants to be a baller on a budget and operating a turbine aircraft on condition is 100% the way to do that without any loss in safety. In fact, if we weren't allowed to do that, a large percentage of these great airplanes would go in the trash vs fly another 25 years

Not saying Mike is wrong here, just being devil’s advocate and pointing out some points of concern.

Not related to the Flex program but an outlet to rant about Williams practices.

A CJ we manage was showing the Check 5 (2nd HSI) coming due at 6000 hours on our tracking software. I contacted Williams to schedule this, they replied the new HSI interval is 3,500 hours and the overhaul interval is 5,000 hours. Of course this is only because we are on the TAP program, non TAP owners aren't afforded this extension. They seem to keep pushing the hours further and further.

I suppose the plus side is we get to fly another 1,000 hours before a major maintenance event?

Since we went the way of Marvin the Martian, there is UFO/Alien Abduction insurance:
https://www.trustedchoice.com/insurance ... insurance/

I will have to find the case but my attorney was telling me years ago that a kid was in a crash and the Mom (100% custody with the absentee “Dad/sperm donor” WTFKW) signed the forms. Plane crashes and the engines were beyond TBO. No MORE program on that piston twin. On condition works just fine most of the them. Dad comes out of nowhere with some backwoods lawyer and gets a settlement because the jury isn’t smart enough to know about engines, TBO, compressions, etc. and the Dad didn’t sign the waiver. It was cheaper to settle. Mom signed the waiver, which was intact for her and her interest in the minor child, and they got $0. The loser Dad blew his $50K on a car or something.

Similar stories exist and it may be BS but my attorney and IA were always on the side of right when the FAA knocked. Fortunately no one dinged my bird in flight.

I believe in Martians but I call mine Elon, not Marvin!

Based on this and other threads it seems Williams puts your balls in a noose when you run their engines. What are the others like? How does Rolls-Royce treat their Citation X owners? How does Pratt treat Citation Excel owners?

Rolls has a pretty tight lock on the Gulfstream business kind of like Pratt did on the KingAir business. GE, I believe, tried to enter both and didn’t get the support they wanted or needed.

Years ago one of the biodiesel companies was flying around a GE powered C90. I worked with the brother of the owner. That must have been 10-15 years ago.