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22 May 2022, 10:21 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


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 Post subject: Re: You say you want an Evolution ...
PostPosted: 02 Oct 2017, 11:20 
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WOW :bugeye:

$25 AMU - $35 AMU minimum hull insurance w/ $50-$100 AMU deductible..... Makes a strong argument to "self-insure".....


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 Post subject: Re: You say you want an Evolution ...
PostPosted: 02 Oct 2017, 11:23 
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Wow. I love the ability to individualize and modernize with an experimental aircraft, but at these insurance rates it wouldn't take long to eliminate any economic advantage of an experimental.


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 Post subject: Re: You say you want an Evolution ...
PostPosted: 02 Oct 2017, 11:29 
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The Fly-In had a presentation from an insurance guy, not a pretty picture. A year ago, 5 carriers would write for the Evolution. Since then, one left the market and two merged with others so now we're down to just 2. I missed getting a picture of the slide for the other company's requirements but it was similar. I thought the last line, about the -42, particularly interesting.


Hi Dave-
Yes you are right - the market is not very pretty for experimental turbines overall. The same now holds true for the Epic. That product is now down to effectively 3 insurers in total (Acceleration/Aerospace Insurance and Great American) whereby it once had 5-6 viable underwriting companies offering terms. The merger which took place earlier this year between Meadowbrook/Aerospace Insurance Managers removed one market from the field (Meadowbrook) for both the Evo and Epic aircraft.

The folks from Epic and Lancair really should be concerned as lack of an insurance climate will certainly impact potential sales of each aircraft.

_________________
Tom Hauge
Wings Insurance
National Sales Director
E-mail: thauge@wingsinsurance.com


Last edited on 02 Oct 2017, 11:40, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: You say you want an Evolution ...
PostPosted: 02 Oct 2017, 11:35 
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Liability only is $2-4K, according to the attendees. Apparently the nose gear collapses have been a big driver of costs, and the -42 planes seem to be more susceptible. At least that was one explanation for the insurance companies' higher deductible for the -42 planes. More heat, heavier nose, more expensive engine to fix? Beats me.


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 Post subject: Re: You say you want an Evolution ...
PostPosted: 02 Oct 2017, 11:44 
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Happier news out of the weekend was that one of the attendees just upgraded the prop on his plane. A 4 leg GPS box run by the RTS test pilot/recurrent instructor produced an average speed of 297 kts. at 17,500' with 3 people aboard (it's faster with a forward CG). The best altitude for speed is reported as 25K so this one should easily be a 300+ knot airplane. That's with the -135A engine, new inlet and 5-bladed Hartzel, same configuration as mine, so I'm cautiously optimistic. :)


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 Post subject: Re: You say you want an Evolution ...
PostPosted: 02 Oct 2017, 11:48 
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Username Protected wrote:
Liability only is $2-4K, according to the attendees. Apparently the nose gear collapses have been a big driver of costs, and the -42 planes seem to be more susceptible. At least that was one explanation for the insurance companies' higher deductible for the -42 planes. More heat, heavier nose, more expensive engine to fix? Beats me.


how do you put $1.5mm into an asset and forgo insuring it's VALUE?

forgoing hull also loses you coverage from things outside of your control, when the prop is not moving, when it's in a hangar, on a ramp, etc- how does one justify not having a policy for that? or are these guys buying ground not-in-motion policies? my understanding is that a GNIM policy also affects the liability portion as well, i.e, there's no way to have liability coverage and GNIM coverage at the same time, someone familiar with insurance chime in here (Tom?) and correct me

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 Post subject: Re: You say you want an Evolution ...
PostPosted: 02 Oct 2017, 11:59 
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[my understanding is that a GNIM policy also affects the liability portion as well, i.e, there's no way to have liability coverage and GNIM coverage at the same time
Not true. I've had exactly that, liability + GNIM, for years on my current plane. The insurance guy also talked about it.


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 Post subject: Re: You say you want an Evolution ...
PostPosted: 02 Oct 2017, 12:04 
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Yes you are right - the market is not very pretty for experimental turbines overall. The same now holds true for the Epic....The folks from Epic and Lancair really should be concerned as lack of an insurance climate will certainly impact potential sales of each aircraft.
Ironically, the Epic owners fly-in was the same weekend, across town. But I could only attend one so I don't know what they discussed.


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 Post subject: Re: You say you want an Evolution ...
PostPosted: 02 Oct 2017, 12:48 
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Username Protected wrote:
how do you put $1.5mm into an asset and forgo insuring it's VALUE?

forgoing hull also loses you coverage from things outside of your control, when the prop is not moving, when it's in a hangar, on a ramp, etc- how does one justify not having a policy for that? or are these guys buying ground not-in-motion policies? my understanding is that a GNIM policy also affects the liability portion as well, i.e, there's no way to have liability coverage and GNIM coverage at the same time, someone familiar with insurance chime in here (Tom?) and correct me


Hi Brian-
You can carry liability only or full flight hull + liability or ground not in motion hull + liability. You can't purchase just hull coverages alone but certainly can carry ground only hull provided your lender is ok with it (if you have a lien).

Essentially it is going to run about the same to insure a G550 as it is an Evo - with the G550 having $0 hull deductibles. Not very good news for the experimental turbine market. The Epic market is seeing better premiums but remains very small in terms of viable insurers.

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Wings Insurance
National Sales Director
E-mail: thauge@wingsinsurance.com


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 Post subject: Re: You say you want an Evolution ...
PostPosted: 02 Oct 2017, 13:45 
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Username Protected wrote:
how do you put $1.5mm into an asset and forgo insuring it's VALUE?
If you have to ask ...


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 Post subject: Re: You say you want an Evolution ...
PostPosted: 02 Oct 2017, 14:01 
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Other notes from this weekend, the Pratt guys said the original inlet's loss vs. a test cell engine was 18%, which isn't very good. Flight tests have shown the new inlet design to be much better, higher power with less Ng for the same ITT, but the loss percentage hasn't yet been quantified. I'd love to have numbers on the losses of TBM's inlet designs for the 900 vs. the 850.

Also, nobody's buying the parachute. The president said it's getting Cirrus owners in the door but once they realize it basically means giving up one seat due to CG they uncheck the box. The exception that proves the rule was a builder set to fly soon who had ordered the parachute, but once he saw all the things his build shop was doing to try to move the CG forward to compensate for the chute he called a halt, returned the chute and had his shop fill in the channels for the straps. The company said no problem, the next time somebody orders the chute we'll give him yours and pay you. After seven months when still nobody else ordered the chute they gave up and ate it.


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 Post subject: Re: You say you want an Evolution ...
PostPosted: 02 Oct 2017, 14:11 
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Username Protected wrote:
how do you put $1.5mm into an asset and forgo insuring it's VALUE?
If you have to ask ...


that's the sort of logic i've seen applied here in the past, at what net worth do you disregard securing a 1.5mm asset?

I would imagine when it's less than 1% of your total net worth, maybe...but it's completely illogical otherwise when there are plenty of other viable options that maintain insurability
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Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that - GCarlin


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 Post subject: Re: You say you want an Evolution ...
PostPosted: 02 Oct 2017, 14:15 
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Username Protected wrote:
that's the sort of logic i've seen applied here in the past, at what net worth do you disregard securing a 1.5mm asset?

I would imagine when it's less than 1% of your total net worth, maybe...but it's completely illogical otherwise when there are plenty of other viable options that maintain insurability


I haven't tried this myself but I have heard that securing financing on an experimental turbine is very challenging.....not a ton of lenders willing to finance this class of business is the feedback my clients have mentioned. So I think a very good percentage of Evo and Epic buyers are likely paying cash for their aircraft. I have no data to substantiate that statement other than what feedback I have received from clients in that space.

_________________
Tom Hauge
Wings Insurance
National Sales Director
E-mail: thauge@wingsinsurance.com


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 Post subject: Re: You say you want an Evolution ...
PostPosted: 02 Oct 2017, 14:20 
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I haven't tried this myself but I have heard that securing financing on an experimental turbine is very challenging.....not a ton of lenders willing to finance this class of business is the feedback my clients have mentioned. So I think a very good percentage of Evo and Epic buyers are likely paying cash for their aircraft. I have no data to substantiate that statement other than what feedback I have received from clients in that space.


I have poked around and spoken with a good bit of owners myself, and it seems the popular thing to do is a HELOC or a private banking LOC (which is a glorified HELOC) and take the tax advantage of writing off the home equity interest

that is another form of financial suicide that i simply do not understand, betting the market (housing) and wagering your home (or a home in your portfolio) against an airplane, there are some silver tongued bankers out there

the other thing banks seem to be doing is getting the borrowers to get term life insurance policies payable to the bank as a contingency/risk mitigation

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Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that - GCarlin


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 Post subject: Re: You say you want an Evolution ...
PostPosted: 02 Oct 2017, 16:55 
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Username Protected wrote:
Happier news out of the weekend was that one of the attendees just upgraded the prop on his plane. A 4 leg GPS box run by the RTS test pilot/recurrent instructor produced an average speed of 297 kts. at 17,500' with 3 people aboard (it's faster with a forward CG). The best altitude for speed is reported as 25K so this one should easily be a 300+ knot airplane. That's with the -135A engine, new inlet and 5-bladed Hartzel, same configuration as mine, so I'm cautiously optimistic. :)

If it weren't for IAS limits I could go a LOT faster at 17,500 than I could at FL250. I'd be interested to learn how much power they were using and how much they had left in reserve. My guess would be that the TAS at altitude will be just short of 300 ktas which is pretty good for a -135A plane.


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