banner
banner

28 Mar 2024, 08:07 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


Concorde Battery (banner)



Reply to topic  [ 335 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 23  Next
Username Protected Message
 Post subject: Williams engine programs - my research
PostPosted: 29 Mar 2017, 01:10 
Offline


 WWW  Profile




Joined: 12/03/14
Posts: 19252
Post Likes: +23612
Company: Ciholas, Inc
Location: KEHR
Aircraft: C560V
I've been looking at some legacy Citations and some of them have been converted with Williams engines. The engines give them longer range, higher performance, and reduced fuel consumption. In some cases, they also come with a FADEC for simpler engine management.

As part of that process, I did some further research into the ownership experience of Williams engines. The majority of the Williams FJ44s out there are on their TAP program. However, this airplane is not:

https://www.controller.com/listings/air ... tation-sii

This is one of the 9 SII Williams conversion aircraft that I know about. Note the engines times, 1943 since new.

I contacted Williams and inquired as to the status of the engines on this airplane, what it costs to get it back on program, and what it costs to be on the program going forward, plus what it would cost to be off program.

To get this airplane back on program will cost $591,229 (given 1968 hours since new, figures Williams provided). This works out to $150/hour for each engine. This is essentially no break from the hourly price all the way back to zero time. Since part of the program is insurance for FOD or break downs, they are getting paid for risk in the past to some extent.

Also, the engines have to go through an inspection to be put back on the program. The inspection requires oil analysis, borescope of major sections of the engine, absence of certain issues (like high oil consumption), and not to have been in an accident or incident. If abnormalities are discovered in any of these steps, they have to be corrected before you can join the program, at your cost and to the liking of Williams.

Once you get past the inspection, and pay the catch up fee, then you sign a 5 year contract for hourly operation. In this case, that fee was $154/hour for 2017 if US registered and US operated. The contract allows Williams to adjust the rate on Jan 1st of each year. There is no defined maximum adjustment in the contract, they can raise the rate to anything they want. In essence, you sign the contract not knowing what more than 80% of the contract fees will be.

***If you get on the program and then stop paying or fail to renew, and then later wish to go back on, you have to pay a catch up fee all the way back to zero time.*** That's right, all the prior payments are canceled and disappear. So if the current owner had been on the program and stopped, all the money he paid in is gone. I found this highly surprising, and asked twice about this, each time having the above interpretation confirmed.

The contract requires a minimum of 150 hours per year. That is $46,200 per year just for the engine program minimum. The contract does allow 1 year out of 5 to be below the minimum without penalty. There is a way to reduce this and that is to prepay 300 hours at the start of each year. If you account has those 300 hours ahead of where you are, you don't get dinged for the minimum. For lower utilization operators, that sounds like the better path than paying the 150 hours per year even for non use. Another small advantage is that you are prepaying future hours at current year rates, so somewhat smaller numbers. Disturbingly, this option is not described in the contract, only told to me by the Williams sales person.

Note that the engines on the example airplane are near 2000 hours. If the engine is NOT on the program, then it has a 2000 hour HSI and a 4000 hour TBO (despite the fact the ad says the engine has 5000 hour TBO). If the engine is on the program, then times increase to 2500 and 5000 hours. How the engine knows to last longer if you send money is beyond me.

So this engine is near the HSI interval. I asked Williams what that would cost off program. The estimate for a clean HSI is $420,000 total for both engines. Williams is the only place that can do the HSI, and if anything is not up to snuff, they get to replace things at their discretion. You would be an idiot if you think the actual invoice will be $420,000. Given the program cost is $591,229, or only $171,229 more than an unrealistic clean HSI estimate, there is no viable option other than to go on program even if it is only JUST to pay for HSI. Of course, once on program, Williams doesn't have to do the HSI for another 500 hours when they are paying for it.

What about overhaul? The estimate for that is $1,100,000 *minimum* total cost for both engines. If off program, this is due at 4000 hours. The Williams sales person said off program HSI and OH costs a *minimum* of 30% MORE than being on program. The distinct impression if that the pricing scheme for off program HSI and OH is deliberately set to be that much higher than being on the program.

Given the above research, there are only three viable choices with regards to Williams engines.

1. Avoid

Do not get an aircraft with a Williams engine. Far more flexibility with the JT15 in who services it, good market of used engines, etc. The extra fuel cost is far less than the engine program costs.

2. Off program, airplane is disposable

The program costs are going to increase over time and you will spend the value of the airplane in fees to Williams. So simply buy the plane, don't pay the fees to Williams, and dump the plane on the market at the next engine event.

3. On program

Pay the $300+ hourly fee. When you go to market to sell the airplane, you won't get all of that money back. Don't get off program or all of your value paid in is lost!

I have attached the sample contract they provided to me. At every contract renewal, Williams can change the terms, or even elect not to provide a contract at all if they so chose. When I asked about what a customer can do if they don't like the new terms, I got the "we have the best program and everyone should be on it" answer. You really are totally at the mercy of Williams in this regard, they have your money, and they are sole source engine service, so if you don't like the deal, tough.

Mike C.


Please login or Register for a free account via the link in the red bar above to download files.

_________________
Email mikec (at) ciholas.com


Top

 Post subject: Re: Williams engine programs - my research
PostPosted: 29 Mar 2017, 01:41 
Offline


User avatar
 WWW  Profile




Joined: 09/09/12
Posts: 2282
Post Likes: +474
Company: Benjamin Law Firm
Aircraft: Meridian
All I can say is OUCH. And go pistons! I promise to not complain about OH costs again.


Top

 Post subject: Re: Williams engine programs - my research
PostPosted: 29 Mar 2017, 03:40 
Offline


 Profile




Joined: 03/09/13
Posts: 910
Post Likes: +449
Location: Byron Bay,NSW Australia
Aircraft: CE525,PA31
Good analysis Mike and pretty much aligns with what I'm seeing.

Have you done an analysis of the Pratts to see how they compare?

Andrew.


Top

 Post subject: Re: Williams engine programs - my research
PostPosted: 29 Mar 2017, 06:46 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 12/15/10
Posts: 593
Post Likes: +297
Location: Burlington VT KBTV
Aircraft: C441 N441WD
Yikes,
Sticking with the Conquest II for now!


Top

 Post subject: Re: Williams engine programs - my research
PostPosted: 29 Mar 2017, 07:52 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 11/23/12
Posts: 2372
Post Likes: +2870
Company: CSRA Document Solutions
Location: Aiken, SC KAIK
Great write up Mike! Thanks for taking the time to share the info. There will continue to be legacy aircraft that will offer low entry points but its nice to know the ones to avoid. I suspect as more and more of the fleet is retired and carrying parts for older airframes and engines becomes a significant financial challenge for many manufacturers you will see more of these type of costs passed along to the folks who are trying to live the jet life on piston expense accounts....

Peace,
Don


Top

 Post subject: Re: Williams engine programs - my research
PostPosted: 29 Mar 2017, 08:23 
Offline



 Profile




Joined: 05/05/09
Posts: 4946
Post Likes: +4777
Aircraft: G44, C501, C55, R66
Thank you Mike; I will never own a Williams motor.


Top

 Post subject: Re: Williams engine programs - my research
PostPosted: 29 Mar 2017, 08:44 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 01/28/13
Posts: 6037
Post Likes: +3998
Location: Indiana
Aircraft: C195, D17S, M20TN
Michael I've learned, slowly with many bruises, never say never. :cheers:

One possibility that might put a Williams in my life would be the boss winning the power ball drawing. she said I get a jet to haul her around in
Never say never.

_________________
Chuck
KEVV


Top

 Post subject: Re: Williams engine programs - my research
PostPosted: 29 Mar 2017, 08:56 
Online


 Profile




Joined: 11/07/11
Posts: 721
Post Likes: +392
Location: KBED, KCRE
Aircraft: Phenom 100
So, $2.3m for that plane once on programs. :crazy:

Chip-


Top

 Post subject: Re: Williams engine programs - my research
PostPosted: 29 Mar 2017, 09:20 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 08/15/11
Posts: 2388
Post Likes: +1055
Location: Mandan, ND
Aircraft: V35
So then why don't you do this?

https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/1440807/2001-cessna-citation-bravo

Honeywell and UNS?


Top

 Post subject: Re: Williams engine programs - my research
PostPosted: 29 Mar 2017, 09:21 
Offline


 WWW  Profile




Joined: 12/03/14
Posts: 19252
Post Likes: +23612
Company: Ciholas, Inc
Location: KEHR
Aircraft: C560V
Username Protected wrote:
So, $2.3m for that plane once on programs.

Yes.

The plane was originally advertised at $2.2M and claimed to be up to date on TAP.

Then the price dropped to $1.6M. Then it went up to $1.7M.

So obviously someone figured out the plane wasn't on the program.

If I bought this airplane, I would make it a condition of sale that it get through ALL the pre program inspection process and each engine made ready for entry.

Mike C.

_________________
Email mikec (at) ciholas.com


Top

 Post subject: Re: Williams engine programs - my research
PostPosted: 29 Mar 2017, 09:33 
Offline


 WWW  Profile




Joined: 12/03/14
Posts: 19252
Post Likes: +23612
Company: Ciholas, Inc
Location: KEHR
Aircraft: C560V
Username Protected wrote:
I will never own a Williams motor.

One of the ironies here is that as owners of Williams equipped aircraft pay more and more into the programs, their aircraft may be worth less and less on the market as future owners decide not to buy into indentured servitude to Williams.

I guarantee if Williams increased engine program costs to $600/hour for a pair, the market value of those aircraft will plummet.

Mike C.

_________________
Email mikec (at) ciholas.com


Top

 Post subject: Re: Williams engine programs - my research
PostPosted: 29 Mar 2017, 09:39 
Offline


 Profile




Joined: 06/09/09
Posts: 4573
Post Likes: +3298
Aircraft: C182P, Merlin IIIC
Username Protected wrote:
So, $2.3m for that plane once on programs.

Yes.

The plane was originally advertised at $2.2M and claimed to be up to date on TAP.

Then the price dropped to $1.6M. Then it went up to $1.7M.

So obviously someone figured out the plane wasn't on the program.

If I bought this airplane, I would make it a condition of sale that it get through ALL the pre program inspection process and each engine made ready for entry.

Mike C.


I think you found out why the engines are not on the program. :D

Top

 Post subject: Re: Williams engine programs - my research
PostPosted: 29 Mar 2017, 10:23 
Offline



User avatar
 WWW  Profile




Joined: 12/12/10
Posts: 275
Post Likes: +57
Company: PLANELOGIX
Location: KRDU
This is an awesome write up providing an articulate and succinct analysis on a topic that is anything but. Well done!! One of those "must reads" for anyone shopping for a jet. :thumbup:

_________________
PLANELOGIX: Always online and available. Aircraft record ecosystem https://www.planelogix.com


Top

 Post subject: Re: Williams engine programs - my research
PostPosted: 29 Mar 2017, 10:46 
Offline


 Profile




Joined: 06/23/09
Posts: 2299
Post Likes: +707
Location: KIKK......Kankakee, Illinois
Aircraft: TBM 850
Thanks Mike. Informative. I went down this path looking at different planes and this was one of many reasons I stuck with TBM.


Top

 Post subject: Re: Williams engine programs - my research
PostPosted: 29 Mar 2017, 11:11 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 02/10/12
Posts: 6819
Post Likes: +7927
Company: Minister of Pith
Location: Florida
Aircraft: Piper PA28/140
Quote:
The estimate for a clean HSI is $420,000 total for both engines.


:bugeye:

How much are they getting per hour for labor?

What does a HSI cost on a P&W?

_________________
"No comment until the time limit is up."


Top

Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic  [ 335 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 23  Next




You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  

Terms of Service | Forum FAQ | Contact Us

BeechTalk, LLC is the quintessential Beechcraft Owners & Pilots Group providing a forum for the discussion of technical, practical, and entertaining issues relating to all Beech aircraft. These include the Bonanza (both V-tail and straight-tail models), Baron, Debonair, Duke, Twin Bonanza, King Air, Sierra, Skipper, Sport, Sundowner, Musketeer, Travel Air, Starship, Queen Air, BeechJet, and Premier lines of airplanes, turboprops, and turbojets.

BeechTalk, LLC is not affiliated or endorsed by the Beechcraft Corporation, its subsidiaries, or affiliates. Beechcraft™, King Air™, and Travel Air™ are the registered trademarks of the Beechcraft Corporation.

Copyright© BeechTalk, LLC 2007-2024

.wilco-85x100.png.
.gallagher_85x50.jpg.
.aircraftferry-85x50.jpg.
.blackhawk-85x100-2019-09-25.jpg.
.Wentworth_85x100.JPG.
.kadex-85x50.jpg.
.tempest.jpg.
.traceaviation-85x150.png.
.geebee-85x50.jpg.
.AAI.jpg.
.aviationdesigndouble.jpg.
.cav-85x50.jpg.
.tat-85x100.png.
.Latitude.jpg.
.dbm.jpg.
.Foreflight_85x50_color.png.
.bpt-85x50-2019-07-27.jpg.
.boomerang-85x50-2023-12-17.png.
.wat-85x50.jpg.
.SCA.jpg.
.daytona.jpg.
.lucysaviation-85x50.png.
.ABS-85x100.jpg.
.midwest2.jpg.
.bullardaviation-85x50-2.jpg.
.shortnnumbers-85x100.png.
.airmart-85x150.png.
.jetacq-85x50.jpg.
.Rocky-Mountain-Turbine-85x100.jpg.
.jandsaviation-85x50.jpg.
.Genesys_85x50.jpg.
.planelogix-85x100-2015-04-15.jpg.
.avionwealth-85x50.png.
.headsetsetc_Small_85x50.jpg.
.stanmusikame-85x50.jpg.
.pdi-85x50.jpg.
.saint-85x50.jpg.
.temple-85x100-2015-02-23.jpg.
.concorde.jpg.
.camguard.jpg.
.sierratrax-85x50.png.
.Wingman 85x50.png.
.chairmanaviation-85x50.jpg.
.CiESVer2.jpg.
.blackwell-85x50.png.
.ei-85x150.jpg.
.MountainAirframe.jpg.
.kingairacademy-85x100.png.
.one-mile-up-85x100.png.
.ssv-85x50-2023-12-17.jpg.
.aircraftassociates-85x50.png.
.pure-medical-85x150.png.
.kingairnation-85x50.png.
.Marsh.jpg.
.avfab-85x50-2018-12-04.png.
.centex-85x50.jpg.
.aeroled-85x50-2022-12-06.jpg.