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 Post subject: Re: Piper PA32 Drivers take note- Basic Med and your aircraf
PostPosted: 30 Dec 2017, 05:54 
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Joined: 02/09/09
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Location: Owosso, MI (KRNP)
Aircraft: 1969 Bonanza V35A
A local pilot has received a field approval limiting the seats to six on his PA-34 for this exact reason. He is working on an STC. I’m not sure what the status of that STC is. PM me and I’ll give you his contact info.

Jason


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 Post subject: Re: Piper PA32 Drivers take note- Basic Med and your aircraf
PostPosted: 30 Dec 2017, 11:34 
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Location: KCRQ
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Aerostar Aircraft has developed an STC applicable to ALL aerostarts that limit them to 6 seats and 6000lb, a Basic Med STC if you will...

It requires Placards and removal of the 7th set of seat belts if installed.


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 Post subject: Re: Piper PA32 Drivers take note- Basic Med and your aircraf
PostPosted: 30 Dec 2017, 12:11 
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Great info gents, Thank you! PM sent.


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 Post subject: Re: Piper PA32 Drivers take note- Basic Med and your aircraf
PostPosted: 30 Dec 2017, 12:16 
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That is the benefit of having a still-supported aircraft. Jim and Steve at Aerostar Aircraft look out for the owners. Maybe Piper will step up to the plate in support of the Cherokee Six and Lance.

It would be simple for them to do as the owner of the type certificate - and the STC is something they can sell. If I still owned one of these I'd be happy to pay the few hundred bucks they would have to charge - hell you'd get that back in savings on NOT paying the AME docs for a medical. Bargain!

Bob Keeping


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 Post subject: Re: Piper PA32 Drivers take note- Basic Med and your aircraf
PostPosted: 31 Dec 2017, 20:34 
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Aircraft: 1956 Champion 7EC
https://www.faa.gov/licenses_certificat ... ed_faq.pdf

The above FAQs on question 33 answers the question. No problem.

Excerpt:
Quote:
Q33: Are PA-32 (Piper Cherokee Six series aircraft) “authorized to carry not more than 6 occupants”?
A: The Piper PA-32-260 (Cherokee Six 260) and PA-32-300 (Cherokee Six 300) aircraft are authorized by their type certificate (as set forth in Type Certificate Data [TCDS] A3SO) to be equipped with 6 seats and also to be equipped with 7 seats only if they have been converted by the installation of Piper Kit No. 69072-3. If your PA-32-260 or PA-32-300 is equipped with 6 seats and has not been converted to a 7-seat configuration by installation of the Piper kit, you may fly the aircraft under BasicMed. If your aircraft has been converted to the 7-seat configuration using the Piper kit you may not fly the aircraft under BasicMed. To fly that aircraft under BasicMed you would have to remove the installed kit and document its removal in the aircraft’s maintenance records. An FAA Form 337 would not be required to document the installation or removal of the kit. You may also fly the aircraft under BasicMed if it is equipped with the 6-seat Optional Club Seat configuration.
A total of 14 aircraft models are listed on TCDS A3SO and their eligibility to be operated under BasicMed depends upon the specific aircraft model.

_________________
Jeff

soloed in a land of Superhomers/1959 Cessna 150, retired with Proline 21/ CJ4.


Last edited on 01 Jan 2018, 16:09, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Piper PA32 Drivers take note- Basic Med and your aircraf
PostPosted: 01 Jan 2018, 11:44 
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Username Protected wrote:
The Type cert for the Aerostar shows 6 seats, with an *

The * says that if you limit the total weight to 380lbs you can put three people in the
bench seat. So is it 6 or 7? My aerostar came from the factory with
Bench seat and three other seats for a total of 6 ;-( How hard is it to get an STC approved changing that number?

Wouldn't being pressurized and/or gross over 6,000 disqualify the A* (601P) from basic med anyway?


Nope.

It’s the 7 seats for a 601p.

all models of Aerostar are certified for 6 or 7, although in my experience most typically have either three seats and a bench or five seats and a bench installed. We always fly ours with the two front seats and a bench in the back.

The factory responded very quickly after the BasicMed was passed with an STC limiting any model (including the 702P with a normal gross weight up to 7850#) to six occupants, 6000# and 18000 feet when operated by a pilot under basic med.

The same airplane may be operated legally under the originally certified parameters when operated by a pilot with at least a third class medical.

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 Post subject: Re: Piper PA32 Drivers take note- Basic Med and your aircraf
PostPosted: 10 Jan 2018, 03:47 
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BASICMED: WHAT IS A COVERED AIRCRAFT?
February 1, 2017 By Chad Mayer

Under Third Class Medical Reform, now known as BasicMed, pilots flying covered aircraft and meeting certain requirements will have the option of using BasicMed in lieu of a third class medical certificate. The new rules take effect May 1, 2017.

It is important to note that BasicMed is not limited to aircraft in the airplane category. Any aircraft that has a maximum certificated takeoff weight of 6,000 pounds or less and is not authorized by federal law to carry more than 6 occupants can be operated under BasicMed per § 61.113(i)(1). There are no limits on horsepower, number of engines, or gear type. However, compliance with the maximum occupant rule is not as simple as confirming the aircraft has 6 seats or fewer installed.

Some aircraft are authorized to have either 6, or more than 6 seats installed per the Type Certificate Data Sheet (TC). One example is the Piper Cherokee 6 (PA-32-300). The TC for this airplane authorizes it to have either 6 or 7 seats installed. Since it is authorized to have 7 occupants, it does not meet the BasicMed requirements, even if only 6 seats are presently installed.

The FAA does allow that an aircraft can receive a Supplemental Type Certificate (STC) or an Amended Type Certificate (ATC) to reduce the maximum number of authorized seats to 6 or fewer
. See Advisory Circular 68-1. If the new design approval authorizes no more than 6 seats, then it will conform with the BasicMed requirements. Similarly, an aircraft that was originally certificated with a maximum certificated takeoff weight greater than 6,000 pounds can receive a new design approval authorizing a maximum certificated takeoff weight of 6,000 pounds or below.

Experimental aircraft may also be flown under BasicMed. Rather than having a TC, experimental aircraft are issued a Special Airworthiness Certificate. Nevertheless, the same restrictions apply. If the experimental aircraft was authorized with a maximum certificated takeoff weight above 6,000 pounds, the design approval would have to be modified to a maximum of 6,000 pounds or less before it could be flown under BasicMed.

BasicMed also restricts pilots to operating no faster than 250 KIAS and no higher than 18,000 feet MSL per § 61.113(i)(2). However, these restrictions do not relate to the operating limitations of the aircraft. It is permissible to fly an aircraft under BasicMed that is capable of flying faster and/or higher than those limits as long as the aircraft can be safely flown within them, and as long as the flight is conducted according to the regulations.

For more on the procedural and medical requirements of BasicMed, see AOPA’s pilot resources.
__________________________________________________________ Mark


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 Post subject: Re: Piper PA32 Drivers take note- Basic Med and your aircraf
PostPosted: 10 Jan 2018, 07:34 
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That has to be one of the dumbest regs ever created. You can't fly your Cherokee 6 unless you pay for an STC to have the 7th seat removed. :roll:
I'd really like to meet the panel of experts who penned this life saving piece! :crazy: :beechslap:

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 Post subject: Re: Piper PA32 Drivers take note- Basic Med and your aircraf
PostPosted: 10 Jan 2018, 08:54 
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AOPA says they are working with the FAA on it. But I have asked several times recently and I get no response.


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 Post subject: Re: Piper PA32 Drivers take note- Basic Med and your aircraf
PostPosted: 10 Jan 2018, 22:42 
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Guess I’m misguided. Tell me why this is a good regulation that needed to be enacted.

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 Post subject: Re: Piper PA32 Drivers take note- Basic Med and your aircraf
PostPosted: 16 Jan 2018, 14:28 
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Username Protected wrote:
Guess I’m misguided. Tell me why this is a good regulation that needed to be enacted.

The concept was great. The problem was that the FAA looked like they were never going to move forward with it and so Congress stepped in. You want to see the panel of experts that crafted this legislation: https://www.congress.gov/members

In typical congressional fashion they failed to consider the implications of some of what they were writing, and didn't have enough experience to know to ask all of the right questions.

The way to "fix" this would be to allow FAA to write a regulation which would replace the law that Congress wrote. Good luck with that.

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 Post subject: Re: Piper PA32 Drivers take note- Basic Med and your aircraf
PostPosted: 16 Jan 2018, 14:34 
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as a practical matter any reg like this has to have some limits. No government entity is going to endorse you flying a 737 basic med so where does the line get drawn ? Wherever you draw it, people who fall right on the line will think it's dumb to have it there.

I'd say, count your blessings. The line could have just as easily been drawn at 4 seats, or 2.


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 Post subject: Re: Piper PA32 Drivers take note- Basic Med and your aircraf
PostPosted: 16 Jan 2018, 15:40 
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Username Protected wrote:
The way to "fix" this would be to allow FAA to write a regulation which would replace the law that Congress wrote. Good luck with that.
The problem is not that the Secretary of Transportation does not have authority to regulate medical matters regarding airmen. He most certainly does. The statutes all so specifically state. The problem is the FAA medical branch and the Department of Transportation did not want to ease the Third Class Medical regulations. Instead, they wanted to make the Third Class even harder to get. Despite a lack of studies showing any measurable improvement in safety over Sport Pilots who can fly without a formal medical at all.

The Congress, appropriately in my view, acted when the Secretary of Transportation refused to act. As Jeff Wright says, there had to be a seat limit. Since we are not going to allow a Basic Med to fly a 737, then what is the number? If the chosen number turned out to have some impact on two airplane types out of hundreds (thousands), then it seems like that is a reasonable price to pay for what is clearly a much better way to handle medical fitness for non-commercial aviator.

Alan Bradley


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 Post subject: Re: Piper PA32 Drivers take note- Basic Med and your aircraf
PostPosted: 16 Jan 2018, 16:02 
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Username Protected wrote:
The problem is not that the Secretary of Transportation does not have authority to regulate medical matters regarding airmen. He most certainly does. The statutes all so specifically state. The problem is the FAA medical branch and the Department of Transportation did not want to ease the Third Class Medical regulations. Instead, they wanted to make the Third Class even harder to get. Despite a lack of studies showing any measurable improvement in safety over Sport Pilots who can fly without a formal medical at all.

The Congress, appropriately in my view, acted when the Secretary of Transportation refused to act. As Jeff Wright says, there had to be a seat limit. Since we are not going to allow a Basic Med to fly a 737, then what is the number? If the chosen number turned out to have some impact on two airplane types out of hundreds (thousands), then it seems like that is a reasonable price to pay for what is clearly a much better way to handle medical fitness for non-commercial aviator.

Alan Bradley


IMHO, the problem isn't with the seat limit itself, the problem is with the piss-poor wording of the statute. The statute doesn't use "standard" FAA language. The statute says "authorized under Federal law to carry more than 6 passengers." That's not how the regs are written, though. Had they used an FAA word like "certified," or even "equipped," it would have fit better into the regulatory framework. Instead, some dipshit drafter chose to use the word "authorized," which doesn't have a clear meaning under the FAA's regs. Does authorized mean certified? Does authorized mean equipped? An airplane with only 6 seats (or seatbelts) is not "authorized" to carry more than 6 people. But an airplane equipped with 1 seat can be certified to carry 12 people (if you remove 11 of the seats).

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 Post subject: Re: Piper PA32 Drivers take note- Basic Med and your aircraf
PostPosted: 16 Jan 2018, 16:03 
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Joined: 11/03/08
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by that reasoning, plenty of skydiving 182's are "authorized" to carry 6 or more


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