BeechTalk - BT

Username Protected · **Posted:** 05 Mar 2017, 13:16

Username Protected wrote:

With the prices dropping, someone will be buying these birds and yes, they are still very capable. Unless they are not 2020 compliant. That year is fast approaching. What I gather is that anybody holding the bag then will be spending 100k to become compliant? Not so bad as it will have been factored into the purchase price. A problem will occur with scheduling the work. The shops will get jammed up, business will be great for them!

Range is $30k to $100k depending on where you are starting from.

Prices for the ADS-B installs went up between 2016 & 2017.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 05 Mar 2017, 15:13

Username Protected wrote:

You are stretching your justification to say that CJ3s get into those type of emergency situations. It has the range and speed to find a decent approach.

Any airplane can get into those situations.

An example:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Pel- ... d_ditching

There are times when busting approach minimums may be the best option, and I'd argue the above accident is such an example. One can argue they shouldn't happen and that's fine, but having that option is one more means at the pilot's disposal.

Mike C.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 05 Mar 2017, 15:27

Username Protected wrote:

You are stretching your justification to say that CJ3s get into those type of emergency situations. It has the range and speed to find a decent approach.

Any airplane can get into those situations.

An example:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Pel- ... d_ditching

There are times when busting approach minimums may be the best option, and I'd argue the above accident is such an example. One can argue they shouldn't happen and that's fine, but having that option is one more means at the pilot's disposal.

Mike C.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 05 Mar 2017, 18:04

Username Protected wrote:

You can get it all on your new G650 when you upgrade.

The irony is that synth viz can be put in a 172 far easier than some jets.

Mike C.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 05 Mar 2017, 18:16

Username Protected wrote:

Can't you just stick a GTN 750 in them and be done with it?

No. I think a G500 (Old school G530) is as good as it gets and even then it's not slaved to the AP.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 05 Mar 2017, 18:38

Username Protected wrote:

No. I think a G500 (Old school G530) is as good as it gets and even then it's not slaved to the AP.

I think you have confused a GPS500, a GPS navigator similar to GNS530 but missing comm and VOR/ILS radios, with a G500, primary flight display.

https://buy.garmin.com/en-SG/digital/p/115

https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/p/63598

Mike C.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 05 Mar 2017, 19:09

Username Protected wrote:

Can't you just stick a GTN 750 in them and be done with it?

No. I think a G500 (Old school G530) is as good as it gets and even then it's not slaved to the AP.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 05 Mar 2017, 19:13

Username Protected wrote:

I asked this in other thread, but got no real response:

Would a first generation CitationJet (CJ), with a majority steam panel be a better and easier path to upgrade with an aftermarket WAAS ADS-B solution? It seem like it gets exponentially harder and more expensive the more you are in the claws of Honeywell, Garmin etc. With steam, it's easy. And since the original CJ has no performance difference from the newer CJ1's and +'s, it seems that this might be a better option, no? But maybe I don't know what I'm talking about (a real possibility).. :rofl:

You are correct Adam. The cockpit "suites" make it much more complex and expensive to upgrade.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 05 Mar 2017, 19:50

Username Protected wrote:

I asked this in other thread, but got no real response:

Would a first generation CitationJet (CJ), with a majority steam panel be a better and easier path to upgrade with an aftermarket WAAS ADS-B solution? It seem like it gets exponentially harder and more expensive the more you are in the claws of Honeywell, Garmin etc. With steam, it's easy. And since the original CJ has no performance difference from the newer CJ1's and +'s, it seems that this might be a better option, no? But maybe I don't know what I'm talking about (a real possibility).. :rofl:

You are correct Adam. The cockpit "suites" make it much more complex and expensive to upgrade.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 05 Mar 2017, 23:58

Username Protected wrote:

That $600K delta would buy you a lot of glass panel, new interior and fuel in a CJ... :scratch:

Yup, newer is not always better.

The 2020 ADS-B deadline is going to erode some value from those early "integrated" airplanes which now find themselves hard or expensive to upgrade.

I still don't know why you can't stick a GTX345 with integrated GPS in the panel. It is a self contained, do everything, ADS-B solution, for a $6K box, approved to FL550 even. With installation, maybe $12K?

So why isn't that being done on these legacy jets?

Mike C.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 06 Mar 2017, 00:11

Username Protected wrote:

That $600K delta would buy you a lot of glass panel, new interior and fuel in a CJ... :scratch:

Yup, newer is not always better.

The 2020 ADS-B deadline is going to erode some value from those early "integrated" airplanes which now find themselves hard or expensive to upgrade.

I still don't know why you can't stick a GTX345 with integrated GPS in the panel. It is a self contained, do everything, ADS-B solution, for a $6K box, approved to FL550 even. With installation, maybe $12K?

So why isn't that being done on these legacy jets?

Mike C.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 06 Mar 2017, 00:40

That and the RVSM STCs. Garmin 345 would make all these planes non RVSM unless someone comes up STC.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 06 Mar 2017, 00:50

Username Protected wrote:

Are they part 25 maybe? Manufacturers TSO doesn't cover it?

510/525/501/551 are Part 23. 500/550/560 are Part 25.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 06 Mar 2017, 01:12

Username Protected wrote:

Would a first generation CitationJet (CJ), with a majority steam panel be a better and easier path to upgrade with an aftermarket WAAS ADS-B solution? It seem like it gets exponentially harder and more expensive the more you are in the claws of Honeywell, Garmin etc. With steam, it's easy. And since the original CJ has no performance difference from the newer CJ1's and +'s, it seems that this might be a better option, no? But maybe I don't know what I'm talking about (a real possibility).. :rofl:

CJs are not really steam. They are more first generation glass AI and HSI that is becoming expensive to repair. You can more easily change the radios and transponders and drop in GNS/GTN boxes and transponders for WAAS and ADSB. But upgrading AI/HSI requires an STC and needs to interface with the AP. You can't drop in a G600 or Aspen PFD/MFD. the only real upgrade option is to install a complete G1000 system which costs around $350K. That gets you locked into Garmin which you were trying to avoid.

CJ1s have federated avionics with Proline 21 glass PFD/MFD and King or Garmin radios and transponders. You can drop into them GNS/GTN a and transponders for WAAS and ADSB. Getting LPV approaches enabled is expensive due to Proline 21 to Garmin interface issues that Cessna charges to make work.

CJ1+ have fully integrated Collins Proline 21 PFD, MFD, FMS, radios, and transponders. All upgrades need to work with Profline 21.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 06 Mar 2017, 01:15

Username Protected wrote:

Hmm. Seems like the CJ's on Controller start at around $800K and the CJ1's start at $1.3M. Add the $100K the CJ1 will cost to update, and it will be a $1.4M plane, still with a vintage first generation EFIS panel. For no performance benefit. In fact, the CJ1 performs worse than the CJ, because it's heavier. That $600K delta would buy you a lot of glass panel, new interior and fuel in a CJ... :scratch:

Check which aircraft are on Williams TAP engine program to compare values. There is a big reduction in value for a plane not on TAP.

Dumping CJ3's