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 Post subject: Piper Saratoga Turbo
PostPosted: 01 Sep 2016, 17:10 
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Joined: 01/07/11
Posts: 290
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Location: West Houston Airport (IWS), TX
Aircraft: A36, Cirrus SR22
I had owned a couple of A 36s over the years and then moved on to Cirrus SR 22 which had kind of spoiled me. I have never flown a Piper before but now I am considering partnership in a 2000 Turbo Saratoga. So, I am tapping in the vast BT knowledge resource. Searched the topic and found generally favorable comparison with A36.

Any words of wisdom about what to look for when deciding to own/fly this bird.


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 Post subject: Re: Piper Saratoga Turbo
PostPosted: 01 Sep 2016, 17:15 
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Joined: 05/13/14
Posts: 4094
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Location: Central Texas (KTPL)
Aircraft: '78 Bonanza A36
Check the W&B of the prospect airplane. As with A36 Bonanzas, the useful load is substantially smaller on newer Saratogas, as compared to those from the early 80s.

I think it's the best passenger cabin of any unpressurized 6-place piston.


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 Post subject: Re: Piper Saratoga Turbo
PostPosted: 01 Sep 2016, 17:36 
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Joined: 04/28/12
Posts: 3092
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Location: Kansas City, MO (KMKC)
Aircraft: 1954 Twin Bonanza
They're great airplanes overhaul. They kinda fly like trucks, but they're big, comfortable and easy to get in and out of (especially for passengers with the barn doors). I've got a good bit of PA32 time from my time working for a Piper dealer. Always loved flying the Saratoga, especially the Turbo models. Honestly, pretty hard to go wrong there. The comparable Bonanza is probably going to be faster, but not as roomy.

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 Post subject: Re: Piper Saratoga Turbo
PostPosted: 01 Sep 2016, 18:16 
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Joined: 12/29/14
Posts: 3218
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Location: Brunswick, Ga
Aircraft: PA32RT-300T
Think minvan vs 4 door sedan.


I bought a Turbo Lance II. I need minivan versatility, not Lexus handling. You don't buy a daily driver Corvette when you gotta drop both kids off at school.

Your CG on the PA32s it extremely versatile. With 100 pounds baggage avail in the nose, you can load it up to capacity with virtually no worry about CG unless your freightering lead ingots.

If you happen to make it out to Costal GA, we can go up and punch some holes in the sky. I'll be moving there next week.


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 Post subject: Re: Piper Saratoga Turbo
PostPosted: 01 Sep 2016, 18:32 
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Joined: 05/13/14
Posts: 4094
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Location: Central Texas (KTPL)
Aircraft: '78 Bonanza A36
Username Protected wrote:
T
I bought a Turbo Lance II. I need minivan versatility, not Lexus handling. You don't buy a daily driver Corvette when you gotta drop both kids off at school.


Pardon the thread drift, but how do you like the T-tail? Is yours intercooled? Does that really matter?


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 Post subject: Re: Piper Saratoga Turbo
PostPosted: 01 Sep 2016, 20:26 
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Joined: 08/30/10
Posts: 2562
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Location: Kingston, NY (20N)
Aircraft: 1985 Bonanza F33A
I have a lot of time in a 2001 NA and agree with most of the comments here. We looked at the turbos, but the useful load on any of them are in the low to mid 1000lbs. None will be over 1075. With the NA, if we loaded full fuel and two 170lb guys, we were beyond the forward CG limit due to the sloping envelope. I would think the turbo is worse with the heavier engine. I can't remember if it was 1999 or 2000 that they moved from the STEC 55 / King silver crown stack to the STEC 55X / Garmin platform. I think the later works better and the STEC 55 is not repairable any longer.

The only gear problems I've ever had in a retract were both in Saratogas. Not a fan of Piper build quality.


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 Post subject: Re: Piper Saratoga Turbo
PostPosted: 01 Sep 2016, 22:44 
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Joined: 01/07/11
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Location: West Houston Airport (IWS), TX
Aircraft: A36, Cirrus SR22
I have flown a few short trips in A 36 with adults in all seats, without much worry. Never had any significant luggage. I also do not plan loading the Saratoga to capacity either. My flying consists of at the most one long haul in a year otherwise 1 - 3 hour trips with a couple of buddies To grab lunch somewhere. So, I guess calculating exact w/B for every flight will not pose much of a problem.


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 Post subject: Re: Piper Saratoga Turbo
PostPosted: 02 Sep 2016, 08:02 
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Joined: 12/29/14
Posts: 3218
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Location: Brunswick, Ga
Aircraft: PA32RT-300T
Username Protected wrote:
T
I bought a Turbo Lance II. I need minivan versatility, not Lexus handling. You don't buy a daily driver Corvette when you gotta drop both kids off at school.


Pardon the thread drift, but how do you like the T-tail? Is yours intercooled? Does that really matter?



It wants plenty of runway and heavy on the controls at approach speeds. I keep it at 85 it's over the fence and land about 80. It's not intercooled. Still has the fishbowl mouth.

There is a lot of value in the T tails. It's not a short strip plane though. Anything under 2500 and I'm concerned. At gross, I'd be very concerned.

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 Post subject: Re: Piper Saratoga Turbo
PostPosted: 02 Sep 2016, 11:39 
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Posts: 254
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Location: TX, GA
Aircraft: CJ4, F33A
I have always liked the turbo saratogas. I used to fly a 1985 model with intercooler and every speed mod available, it was faster than the A36. Burns more fuel and overhauls are more expensive but the cabin and baggage space is nice. The newer generation models like you are considering give similar performance on slightly less fuel in my experience. These airplanes don't handle as well as a bonanza or have the build quality but I still wouldn't hesitate to buy one if I wanted the cabin space they offer.


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 Post subject: Re: Piper Saratoga Turbo
PostPosted: 02 Sep 2016, 11:59 
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Turbo Lance driver as well, non intercooled, its a great IFR platform. I have a JPI830 and temps have never been an issue for me (CHTs are around 360 at cruise). Yes its heavy on the controls when near approach speeds but after a couple flights its not a big deal. I've had mine for 3 years now and still think its a great value. But I will echo what Jeff says, It is not a Short Strip plane. I typically stick to runways that are at least 3500ft paved.


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 Post subject: Re: Piper Saratoga Turbo
PostPosted: 02 Sep 2016, 17:30 
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Joined: 12/29/14
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Location: Brunswick, Ga
Aircraft: PA32RT-300T
Username Protected wrote:
Turbo Lance driver as well, non intercooled, its a great IFR platform. I have a JPI830 and temps have never been an issue for me (CHTs are around 360 at cruise). Yes its heavy on the controls when near approach speeds but after a couple flights its not a big deal. I've had mine for 3 years now and still think its a great value. But I will echo what Jeff says, It is not a Short Strip plane. I typically stick to runways that are at least 3500ft paved.


What FF, rpm and MP are you running? I've been having temp issues and can't sort it. Been at 400 cht, 24 squared recently.


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 Post subject: Re: Piper Saratoga Turbo
PostPosted: 02 Sep 2016, 18:50 
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Username Protected wrote:
Turbo Lance driver as well, non intercooled, its a great IFR platform. I have a JPI830 and temps have never been an issue for me (CHTs are around 360 at cruise). Yes its heavy on the controls when near approach speeds but after a couple flights its not a big deal. I've had mine for 3 years now and still think its a great value. But I will echo what Jeff says, It is not a Short Strip plane. I typically stick to runways that are at least 3500ft paved.


What FF, rpm and MP are you running? I've been having temp issues and can't sort it. Been at 400 cht, 24 squared recently.


Im usually running 24 squared, 16.5-17gph. In the summer I will usually run a higher MP to get up to 65% power. I will usually leave the mixture full until I get past 10,000ft just to keep the temps down and once I get to cruise I will leave the cowl flaps open for about 5 minutes just to keep the temps down. But I think 380 is the highest I have seen. If you are still having issues with it, I'd double check your baffles. Also, play around with power settings. I have my go to settings and then there are some others that my engine just does not like (26/23 used to be great but then CHTs started to climb up there). After my last annual I replaced all my spark plugs since it hadnt been done in a while (changed on condition up to that point), since then all my CHTs have been within 5 degrees of each other.

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 Post subject: Re: Piper Saratoga Turbo
PostPosted: 03 Sep 2016, 19:43 
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Joined: 11/19/15
Posts: 628
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Company: Centurion LV
Location: Draper UT KPVU-KSMO
Aircraft: Mirage N345RP
Turbo Toga is a a great plane. Stable, large interior, and pretty fast.

I am 6'5" 240lb and fit very well in our 1982 Turbo Saratoga. The newer models have less UL which may or may not be an issue for you. Mine is loaded with AC, intercooler, Retract, and New leather interior and we still have a 1225lb UL. The newer models for same equipment is around 1000-1050lb UL

Great IFR platform as its super stable and handles turbulence well. I true out at 175kt at 67% power, so its pretty fast.

With Air-conditioning you will have a hard time loading up the rear seats. Our CG is pretty far back and unless we load up the forward baggage compartment we can't put two larger people in the rear seats at gross. If I take 5 people its usually one in the rear, two in the middle seats, and two in the cockpit. if I have 100lbs in the front baggage I can then put two in the rear seats.

Overall love the plane, even though I am looking to upgrade to a Meridian or Malibu. I really want pressurized plane for the flying I do. I am on Oxygen almost every flight and passengers don't like it so I am forced to fly under the clouds when I have picky passengers. Plus it seems like I am always filling the Oxygen tank and my FBO charges $90 a fill and it seems like it takes them two hours to fill it LOL.

Mike

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 Post subject: Re: Piper Saratoga Turbo
PostPosted: 04 Sep 2016, 00:20 
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Joined: 09/28/13
Posts: 785
Post Likes: +153
Company: M & W Associates, Inc.
Location: Centerville, TN KGHM
Aircraft: 1982 58P
My Dad has a '98 TC. Nice airplane. It won't haul much of anything, though. His is 1052UL I believe. It has a/c. It's comfortable but I think harder to get into/out of than the Bo/Baron. No comparison on build quality, feel and flying. Nice and modern, though. I always hear of complaints of tail waggle in the A36 but I think his 'Toga wiggles more than my Bo did. The turbo loves fuel, too. I fly his on a short hop so I don't have to fly a 58P 40 miles and even at 28/23 I can't hardly get the thing under 16-17 gph. Even with all of that, I like it.


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 Post subject: Re: Piper Saratoga Turbo
PostPosted: 04 Sep 2016, 08:25 
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Joined: 11/20/14
Posts: 2809
Post Likes: +1380
Aircraft: V35
Michael,

You can probably do better on oxygen if you buy your own large bottle for the hangar and use it to,fill your plane. Many threads here from people in the industry who say O2 is O2 and fill up a big "all year" bottle at a welding shop for less than you're paying for a weekly refill.

I dunno how to change the passengers' behavior, though.


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