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 Post subject: Re: L-39 Operators?
PostPosted: 04 Aug 2016, 15:50 
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Company: Horizon Aviation
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Tom,

Thanks for the info.

I demoed a plane with Nathan last Saturday and had a ball. I'm reaching out on this forum to get a reality check about the info I got from Nathan.

Your direct referral speaks loud and clear.

Thanks,

Zeke


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 Post subject: Re: L-39 Operators?
PostPosted: 04 Aug 2016, 22:34 
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Keep us posted on what you find out


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 Post subject: Re: L-39 Operators?
PostPosted: 04 Aug 2016, 23:27 
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Location: Austin, Texas and Argentina
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Zeke,

I'm curious, what kind of numbers have you been given for true (i.e., realistic) costs to keep airworthy and operate an L-39?


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 Post subject: Re: L-39 Operators?
PostPosted: 04 Aug 2016, 23:38 
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Joined: 10/02/13
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Aircraft: PA-30, Sukhoi 29
Zeke,

If they are licensed experimental exhibition you will be required to file a program letter with the FAA. In the case of the Suk, I am restricted to inform the FAA in writing for any flight over 300nm of my home base at EWB. I believe that jets may have a greater range. Not a big deal but at 300 to 400 knots, you can cover some ground. This can be avoided if you can find a pre moratorium aircraft.

Hans


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 Post subject: Re: L-39 Operators?
PostPosted: 18 Sep 2016, 15:24 
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Location: Queretaro / Woodlands
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Zeke - what have you found out? Have you made any progress on the L-39?


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 Post subject: Re: L-39 Operators?
PostPosted: 21 Sep 2016, 02:04 
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Aircraft: 1984 B36TC
The Marchetti 211 looks like a poor mans A-7


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 Post subject: Re: L-39 Operators?
PostPosted: 21 Sep 2016, 14:11 
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Location: Queretaro / Woodlands
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From a practical and ease of ownership standpoint the difference between owning a Marchetti and an L39 is like the difference between owning a Beech 18 and owning a Baron. Both great planes but the 18 is going to be a lot of work.

With the L39, there is definitely strength in numbers - with more than 300 aircraft in pravte hands and thousands more still in military service, a network of suppliers / shops for support, ongoing support by the factory itself and even a path to future engine upgrades with the Williams FJ44 engine, the L39 seems like a better choice.


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 Post subject: Re: L-39 Operators?
PostPosted: 21 Sep 2016, 19:04 
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FWIW- Reno Jet Races this year a S211's best race was 400 MPH, Qualified 380ish behind L-29s and Vampires.
L-39s ranged up to 513 for fastest Qualifier, slowest was 437.

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Be careful what you ask for, your mechanic wants to sleep at night.


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 Post subject: Re: L-39 Operators?
PostPosted: 22 Sep 2016, 13:08 
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Alex,

We have continued our research into the L-39. My putative partner in the plane (Dennis) only has 860 hours so he is focusing on getting to the 1,000 hour minimum required for a jet LOA. So we're not in a rush.

Dennis and I both spoke extensively with Code 1 Aviation at Oshkosh. And we each took a demo flight in the plane. We also spoke with several current operators and got their take on operating costs. With the caveats listed below, we both think the plane is easy to fly (it was a trainer) and a LOT of fun. Whether we pull the trigger is still to be determined.

After giving him an honest assessment of my flying skills, I asked the DPE who would conduct the LOA ride how much training until we would be proficient for the ride. He said 5-7 flights (of approximately 1.2 hours each). Dennis and I are both comfortable/proficient upside down already though neither of us would describe ourselves as experts. True, this is limited to piston aircraft (Marchetti 260, Great Lakes, Decathlon). But we're good with inverted spins, situational awareness on snap rolls, etc.

There are clearly scenarios where the L-39 can be dangerous. For example a suspected engine failure immediately take-off recently killed a very experienced L-39 driver, and low level acro gets dangerous quickly as well. We can't control the first (other than good maintenance) but strict rules about minimum entry altitudes can address the second. I asked a group of L-39 pilots how their peers were killing themselves and they all said "low level acro."

Acquisition and operating costs were the next topic. It looks like a basic airframe is $75K and then you add engine life. Overhaul is about $220K, real world engine ife is 1,000 hours. Then you add spiffy paint and avionics.

If you buy a sound airframe, the basic Annual is about $10K-$12K and you can budget whatever for ongoing systems upgrades or overhauls. This year do xxx and next year do yyy on an ongoing upgrade plan.

All operators said it was a gas and go jet. Average is 130-200 gallons per hour - depending on stage lengths.

Would love to hear if anyone has feedback on this info.

Thanks, Zeke


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 Post subject: Re: L-39 Operators?
PostPosted: 22 Sep 2016, 18:22 
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Very good info Zeke. I also have been talking with Nathan at Code 1 and he told me pretty much the same things you discuss.

An interesting development is that they are about a month away from testing a Honeywell TFE731 turbofan conversion for the L39. This is pretty much what the L139 is and it would be a great re-engining upgrade as parts and support are readily available. The price point (about 250K) is also very compelling. What I have read and been told is that while the Ivchenko AI-25TL is reliable, overhaul can be an issue although spare engines are still available. The TFE731 also has better fuel consumption adding about 20-30% more range to the L39.

If you add the Aux Fuel conversion they have, he says you can turn the L39 into about a 600 nm airplane as configured today - they hope to turn this into around 800-900 nm with the TFE731. Being able to combine fun with practical utility on those commuter flights where it's just me and maybe 1 PAX on 400-600 nm one day trips, is something to think about.


Last edited on 22 Sep 2016, 18:24, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: L-39 Operators?
PostPosted: 22 Sep 2016, 18:23 
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I have some jet warbird ownership and piloting experience. I will give you my honest opinion:

Pay to rent one and get it out of your system.

I initially bought a Vampire and decided to go more modern and ended up with a TS-11 Iskra. I flew it about 60 hours and put 8000 gallons of fuel through it. During that time I pulled 5-6 Gs routinely and briefly pulled 9 Gs out of an undisclosed low level pass that took out my passenger for over a minute.

After six months of always preparing for an emergency and worrying about liability I decided it was time to move on. It is the only plane I lost money on.

After I sold my Iskra a gentleman that considered buying my Iskra bought an L-39 - probably the nicest one in the country. He flew it for 2 years (about 100 hours) and called me when he sold it. He also owned a Lear 24 and Cheyenne II. I still remember his words like it was yesterday: "You know, Todd, planes like your Iskra and my L-39 are truly worthless. I had fun for the first few flights, but after doing loops, rolls, etc and burning 125 GPH going nowhere I decided it was not worth the risk flying a single engine jet that truly is an accident waiting to happen. I am glad to be rid of it."

Anyway, it is fun for a while, but it grows old quickly. I would much rather have a Pitts or Extra for aerobatics or a 400MPH Glasair or similar to race. The jet is really a slug when it comes to aerobatics.

Anyway, just giving you an honest opinion of two people that have owned them.

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 Post subject: Re: L-39 Operators?
PostPosted: 22 Sep 2016, 18:32 
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You're probably right Todd. Just remember - some guys buy red convertibles and get 20 year old blondes with big boobs when they reach their middle age crisis. An L-39 would definitely be more acceptable to my better half. ;)

OTOH, I do about 10-20% of my trips in the CJ alone or with someone else burning about the same as I would in the L-39 (ok - maybe I'm just trying to talk myself into this).... Low level aerobatics and pulling 5, 6, 7 or 9G's is not something I think I will be trying or wanting to do anytime soon. In the meantime, I'll heed your advise and rent before I buy.


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 Post subject: Re: L-39 Operators?
PostPosted: 22 Sep 2016, 19:00 
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I will expand a bit: The gentleman that was originally going to buy my friend's L-39 was a hand surgeon. He sent my friend $30k as a deposit and then backed out. It was no problem with my friend as the surgeon was very nice and honest. He even diagnosed my friend's hand condition over the phone and gave him good advice that fixed his problem. :D

Anyway, my friend advised him to simply get with someone that already has one, offer to insure the plane for him and pay him an hourly rate on top of that. "Call me back in a year and let me know if you still want to own one" he said. He found someone that agreed and did just that. A year later he called my friend and said "Thank you, I am done - I appreciate your advice."

Also, there are things to consider with single engine jets with the engine below. One is the fact that if the gear will not come down you are better off to eject than risk a gear up landing. The plane has a good chance of cartwheeling down the runway and fire is also a big concern. When you eject, you now have a 3-4 ton plane with 300 gallons of fuel heading somewhere. Do you want that liability?

I have learned that if I'm going to do risky things from here on out it will be in something that is likely to only kill me and definitely something that I won't lose a lot of money if I sell or worse yet, lose all of it and everything I own if I kill a city block of people.

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The kid gets it all. Just plant us in the damn garden, next to the stupid lion.


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 Post subject: Re: L-39 Operators?
PostPosted: 22 Sep 2016, 20:26 
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Username Protected wrote:
.... get 20 year old blondes with big boobs when they reach their middle age crisis...


That right there can be as dangerous or more than a single engine fighter jet. 200 gallons/hr. of Jet A is less expensive as well.


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 Post subject: Re: L-39 Operators?
PostPosted: 23 Sep 2016, 09:21 
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Todd-

Thank you for your feedback. It's appreciated.

You're right, the L39 is a one trick pony. Granted, it's a hell of a trick.

As you say, getting our kicks in something else is a possibility. I really like the SW300 and that would be a ball. And the same partner and I do already have a Pitts Model 12 together. But...

Thanks again,

Zeke


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