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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 13 May 2016, 12:34 
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Location: Katy, TX (KTME)
Aircraft: Citation 501sp
Username Protected wrote:
Are you saying that, with this supposed 15% drag reduction that the Audi engine cannot propel the aircraft at these speeds?

15% less drag, if achieved, means I am using 85% power at the same speed. Now if I use the extra power and speed up, I only go 5% faster because speed goes up as the cube root of power.

Quote:
Or are you saying that he's misinterpreting the data and that he is not achieving the claimed reduction in drag?

Very likely as well. Lots of drag comes from things he is not accounting for, like antennas, air intakes, air exhaust, stability/certification requirements, etc.

Ain't nobody going 300 knots in a 300 HP 5 place pressurize airplane.

Mike C.

Unless downhill in pieces.

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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 13 May 2016, 12:50 
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Username Protected wrote:
Unless downhill in pieces.

Nope. Once it's in pieces it's not longer pressurized! :eek:


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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 13 May 2016, 12:56 
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Username Protected wrote:
Jet speed, jet altitude (kind of), Honda Civic economy and Boeing range for $100k!!!

Got to hand it to them, they nailed the market. That is what everybody wants. They will sell like hotcakes!

As far as "jet" speed and altitude, the SF50 has redefined the threshold for that. Lots of us now have "jet" speed and altitude.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 13 May 2016, 12:59 
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Username Protected wrote:
Jet speed, jet altitude (kind of), Honda Civic economy and Boeing range for $100k!!!


They should have named it the "Unicorn", rather than "Raptor"!!

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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 13 May 2016, 13:15 
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Company: Bystronic
Location: Pinehurst, NC (KSOP)
Aircraft: 1965 Bonanza S35
Guys,

I'm hearin everything you're sayin.

But consider this for a minute...

GA is in a death spiral and has been for a while.

We've addressed this here on this very forum. The reasons are many, but part of the concern, as it relates to millenial's flying, were...

1. outdated fleet
2. outdated instrument on said fleet
3. outdated rental / trainers
4. prohibitive cost of training, renting, buying, upgrading, maintaining, insuring...

Not to mention the fact that many of us here would like for our aircraft to...

1. have more range
2. have more room / head, shoulder, leg, baggage
3. have more speed
4. have pressurization


This guy seems to be addressing all of these "Would Like to Have's" on the checklist.


So, being the devil's advocate here, let's say that he misses the mark on 1/3 of the things here, i.e.

1. Speed
2. Range
3. Price

Let's further postulate that he misses these goals by 1/3, thereby resulting in...

1. Will only cruise at 200 kts
2. Range only 2400 nm
3. Price is $200K

Well then, how many of us wouldn't want that very plane in our hangar!?!?!?

I'm just trying to say that unlike other "New Aircraft Supposedly in the works" (Like that box wing thing in The Dakotas or Montana) these guys are actually building the prototype. Or at least purport to be doing so.


I for one am choosing to be cautiously optimistic on this one. If he can only accomplish 67% of his goals, it's 1000% more being done for GA than what I have designed & or started to build. :shrug:


edit:

The only thing I can think I'd add to this plane, since it already has a BRS would be this...

http://youtu.be/6jRS8st2mts


I'd think that would accomplish a "Peace of mind" index that should satisfy most doubting SWMBO's or HIMBO's. :cheers:

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"TRUTH is AUTHORITY..... Authority is not Truth"


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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 13 May 2016, 13:34 
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Aircraft: MU-2B-26, N305DS
Username Protected wrote:
GA is in a death spiral and has been for a while.

Caused, in some part, by these snake oil projects.

Quote:
This guy seems to be addressing all of these "Would Like to Have's" on the checklist.

Except one:

Can actually exist.

Quote:
Let's further postulate that he misses these goals by 1/3, thereby resulting in...

1. Will only cruise at 200 kts
2. Range only 2400 nm
3. Price is $200K

Well then, how many of us wouldn't want that very plane in our hangar!?!?!?

Even with those numbers, it doesn't exist. A little piddly LSA costs near $200K, goes 100 knots, and the range is 300 nm, and they don't even have to be certified!

Quote:
I for one am choosing to be cautiously optimistic on this one. If he can only accomplish 67% of his goals, it's 1000% more being done for GA than what I have designed & or started to build.

Ah, the "dreamers move us forward" argument. Unfortunately, this is NOT a new dream, it is one that has been very thoroughly looked into and we just know this isn't possible from the outset. The fact that nothing even remotely like this exists in the experimental area tells you something.

He might as well be selling anti gravity boots.

Quote:
The only thing I can think I'd add to this plane, since it already has a BRS would be this...
I'd think that would accomplish a "Peace of mind" index that should satisfy most doubting SWMBO's or HIMBO's.

Why not, there's no harm in including anything at this point.

And you are right, this is all about peace of mind, not an actual increase in safety. Passenger initiated chute pulls from pilot incapacitation are non existent.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 13 May 2016, 13:35 
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Location: Pinehurst, NC (KSOP)
Aircraft: 1965 Bonanza S35
Hearing all of the naysayers here has me remembering...

http://youtu.be/M_QkIRY01n8


(the best part is around 18 mins when he is on trial.)

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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 13 May 2016, 13:36 
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Joined: 01/31/10
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Location: SOUTHWEST
Aircraft: PA32, CE560Ultra
240ktas on 13gph

http://www.questairventure.com/specs.html

18.5nmpg at 12,000'. Thats thick air (down low) for that efficiency. Surely this design can be improved upon to offset size. Check out the speed gains of the Delaminator (60mpg at 164mph).

Raptor seems like a scam, but the Cirrus and Bonanza designs are incredibly inefficient aerodynamically.


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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 13 May 2016, 13:48 
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Username Protected wrote:

Raptor seems like a scam, but the Cirrus and Bonanza designs are incredibly inefficient aerodynamically.


I thought the V-tail had a Cd of 0.19, which I thought was pretty darn good. No idea on the cirrus, or the Quest.

I've looked at the Quest before and liked what I saw. I wonder why they don't dial off of the +5G loading and get more useful load into the thing at 3.8 or 4.4 -- 53 gallons is not a lot to feed an IO-550 with.


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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 13 May 2016, 13:52 
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The Vtail is very impressive, for its structure. Imagine a carbon-fiber (computer-modeled) Vtail with no rivets, lap joints, external antennas, lights, clamshell cooling with slit intakes, etc.

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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 13 May 2016, 14:02 
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Username Protected wrote:
The Vtail is very impressive, for its structure. Imagine a carbon-fiber (computer-modeled) Vtail with no rivets, lap joints, external antennas, lights, clamshell cooling with slit intakes, etc.


I actually wish someone would test that theory on the SA Ravin 500, which was a "modern" clone of the Piper Comanche.

I'd love before and after Cd numbers for the two. I suspect "negligible difference", but I'd love to be surprised.

At some point when you're done doing maximum aerodynamic cleanup, you've made yourself a missile. :D


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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 13 May 2016, 14:10 
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Joined: 10/26/08
Posts: 4629
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Company: Bystronic
Location: Pinehurst, NC (KSOP)
Aircraft: 1965 Bonanza S35
Username Protected wrote:
GA is in a death spiral and has been for a while.

Caused, in some part, by these snake oil projects.

Quote:
This guy seems to be addressing all of these "Would Like to Have's" on the checklist.

Except one:

Can actually exist.

Quote:
Let's further postulate that he misses these goals by 1/3, thereby resulting in...

1. Will only cruise at 200 kts
2. Range only 2400 nm
3. Price is $200K

Well then, how many of us wouldn't want that very plane in our hangar!?!?!?

Even with those numbers, it doesn't exist. A little piddly LSA costs near $200K, goes 100 knots, and the range is 300 nm, and they don't even have to be certified!

Quote:
I for one am choosing to be cautiously optimistic on this one. If he can only accomplish 67% of his goals, it's 1000% more being done for GA than what I have designed & or started to build.

Ah, the "dreamers move us forward" argument. Unfortunately, this is NOT a new dream, it is one that has been very thoroughly looked into and we just know this isn't possible from the outset. The fact that nothing even remotely like this exists in the experimental area tells you something.

He might as well be selling anti gravity boots.

Quote:
The only thing I can think I'd add to this plane, since it already has a BRS would be this...
I'd think that would accomplish a "Peace of mind" index that should satisfy most doubting SWMBO's or HIMBO's.

Why not, there's no harm in including anything at this point.

And you are right, this is all about peace of mind, not an actual increase in safety. Passenger initiated chute pulls from pilot incapacitation are non existent.

Mike C.




By the way,

The SF 50 thread just called me. Seems they want their Troll back! :duck:


Dude, I get that you don't care for this project, but again with the tone!

I never said anything about incapacitated pilots pulling the ripcord, so, why go there?

If you have supporting data to the contrary of what this guy is stating, then share it.

The antigravity boots sh!t is just that!

Oh, and guys like this helped perpetuate the decline of GA, Really? I'm inclined to think it's more of running into knowitalla$$holes at the airports, or on these forums.

BWTHDIK
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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 13 May 2016, 14:27 
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Aircraft: Citation 501sp
I don't think Mike is doing anything other than applying math skills to refute the marketing material presented by this company. That's not being a naysayer. Anyone is free to say anything or make whatever claims they want. Similarly anyone can refute those claims. What's interesting is when people get offended by a. The claims being made and b. The claims being refuted by sound logic, math and common sense.

Reminiscent of the climate change debate....
I'm always wary of the people who get offended when their ideas are challenged with facts. Name calling follows usually. Tells me there's something wrong with the idea to begin with.....


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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 13 May 2016, 14:29 
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Location: phoenix, AZ (KDVT)
Aircraft: 1968 Bonanza V35A
For my own education, I visited the Raptor website. they request a minimum of 1000 deposits at $2000 each with the tag line "Get in line now and tell all your friends".
They also run a clothing store. Raptor t-shirts for only $35.94. Raptor hats for $46.99 and $29.99. "One day only sale-14% off and free shipping with orders over $99".

Dean, I watched the Billy Mitchell video you linked. Do you mean to compare the life, the accomplishments and future visions of this great American to the Raptor project?


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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 13 May 2016, 14:34 
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Username Protected wrote:

I actually wish someone would test that theory on the SA Ravin 500, which was a "modern" clone of the Piper Comanche.

I'd love before and after Cd numbers for the two. I suspect "negligible difference", but I'd love to be surprised.

At some point when you're done doing maximum aerodynamic cleanup, you've made yourself a missile. :D


I go back to the Delaminator. Incredible speed on 100hp. He cleaned up an already efficient design and squeezed out a whole lot more performance.

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