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22 Jan 2020, 16:02 [ UTC - 5; DST ]





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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 04 Dec 2019, 13:59 
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Username Protected wrote:
Didn't know about that, thanks.

As for the other posters, the issue isn't taking an aluminum wing near a thunderstorm. The issue is taking one with a deliberate electric charge running through the leading edge surfaces of the entire plane.

Sorry you missed the difference.


There is no difference.

All lightning sees is conductor vs non-conductor. The presence or absence of current in that conductor makes no difference.

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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 04 Dec 2019, 14:09 
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Username Protected wrote:
Didn't know about that, thanks.

As for the other posters, the issue isn't taking an aluminum wing near a thunderstorm. The issue is taking one with a deliberate electric charge running through the leading edge surfaces of the entire plane.

Sorry you missed the difference.


There is no difference.

All lightning sees is conductor vs non-conductor. The presence or absence of current in that conductor makes no difference.

I'm not certain I would agree with that.

The presence of the electrical charge over a wider area might change a non-conductive surface to a conductive surface.

It also might not but before I put myself in that aircraft I'd want the technical diagramming. All of it. And the near-thunderstorm research data to prove that it doesn't do so.

People said the same thing about other planes and I'm watching this auction for a Lancair ES that got hit by lightning and shorted out almost every damn piece of avionics and caught the tail on fire.

Interesting things happen when you start introducing new electrical systems in areas of high electrical charge. This is why new technology sometimes get AD'd out of existence. You don't know what it does until it does it.

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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 04 Dec 2019, 15:37 
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Username Protected wrote:
There is no difference.

All lightning sees is conductor vs non-conductor. The presence or absence of current in that conductor makes no difference.


Are you sure on this? I thought positive/negative charge attraction also plays into it.

Tim


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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 04 Dec 2019, 19:39 
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Username Protected wrote:
There is no difference.

All lightning sees is conductor vs non-conductor. The presence or absence of current in that conductor makes no difference.


Are you sure on this? I thought positive/negative charge attraction also plays into it.

Tim


I don’t think any wing heating systems run in the hundreds of kilovolt range. 14-28 volts is not going to make a difference.

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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 04 Dec 2019, 19:56 
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In all likelihood it's not running at 28V. It's likely stepped up and transformed into at least 115VAC if not something higher.


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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 04 Dec 2019, 20:37 
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Username Protected wrote:
I don’t think any wing heating systems run in the hundreds of kilovolt range.
Not kilovolts but not 28v either. The GA-sized Thermawing and Villinger systems are 70v DC. The 787 system is 235v AC, but it's not "stepped up", that's the output of the engine generators. It's unregulated AC, frequency varies with engine speed, so no constant-speed drives to mess with.


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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 04 Dec 2019, 22:17 
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Username Protected wrote:
Your wait is over, that would be the 787. Over 900 delivered, flying all over the world, no doubt many have been near thunderstorms, no reports of thunderstorm-related problems.

Didn't know about that, thanks.

As for the other posters, the issue isn't taking an aluminum wing near a thunderstorm. The issue is taking one with a deliberate electric charge running through the leading edge surfaces of the entire plane.

Sorry you missed the difference.

While I'm not convinced that electric heating of both wing's entire leading edge is practical in a small airplane, I see no safety issue with the concept beyond the possibility of a meltdown or fire should something short out. And unless the plan is to use a metal leading edge that's electrically isolated from the rest of the wing as a resistive heating element there wouldn't be any current (running charges are currents) flowing through the leading edge and even if that were the case the voltage would be minimal.

FWIW, given that the return path for nav lights and on some Beechcraft, the landing lights is the wing itself, you've probably already flown an airplane with a "charge running through the wing" without incident. :cheers:
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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 04 Dec 2019, 23:31 
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Possibly. 28VDC on a single ground return is a little different than a higher voltage blanket on each leading edge but obviously it hasn't been a problem yet with the few airplanes running it.

If it would work, it would be a good replacement for boots that dry up over time.


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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 05 Dec 2019, 02:45 
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Username Protected wrote:
The 787 system is 235v AC, but it's not "stepped up", that's the output of the engine generators. It's unregulated AC, frequency varies with engine speed, so no constant-speed drives to mess with.


Also known in the industry as "wild ac"


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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 05 Dec 2019, 04:31 
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Username Protected wrote:
The presence of the electrical charge over a wider area might change a non-conductive surface to a conductive surface.

It also might not but before I put myself in that aircraft I'd want the technical diagramming. All of it. And the near-thunderstorm research data to prove that it doesn't do so.

I'm sorry, but with that level of misunderstanding of the physics, you aren't equipped to interpret the technical diagrams in that context.


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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 05 Dec 2019, 09:56 
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Username Protected wrote:
The presence of the electrical charge over a wider area might change a non-conductive surface to a conductive surface.

It also might not but before I put myself in that aircraft I'd want the technical diagramming. All of it. And the near-thunderstorm research data to prove that it doesn't do so.

I'm sorry, but with that level of misunderstanding of the physics, you aren't equipped to interpret the technical diagrams in that context.

I would beg to disagree, seeing as I do my own avionics wiring.

But good luck with that.

When you start introducing a larger area of electrical conductive element, especially with a flexible rubber or neoprene surface, you vastly increase the surface area that may, over time, crack and short to the underlying or overlapping (dependent on design) metal structure it is attached to.

This is simple physics.

You have a nice day now.

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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 05 Dec 2019, 16:56 
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just from a practical sense, seeing the amount of energy needed just to deice the prop blades and/or the pitot, its going to take a large amount of energy to deice a wing.. Just don't see it happening.

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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 05 Dec 2019, 17:28 
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The math isn't exactly simple, as it involves the thermodynamics of a constant flow of a fluid over the leading edge of the wing, but electrically-heated leading edges in light GA aircraft is not only possible, it has been commercially available for more than a decade.

It doesn't require an unlimited amount of power. The system installed by Columbia only needed a 7500 watt alternator.

http://www.rddent.com/thermawingtrade.html

The Thermawing system has passed around ownership a few times. Kelley Thermal Systems owned for a while and they sold it to concentrate on electric air conditioning systems.

The Thermawing system is installed and running on a whole bunch of Columbia 350 and 400 aircraft. It was never fiki and protected the wing and horizontal stabilizer only, as does the non-FIKI TKS system available on the same aircraft.

There was an early AD on it, but was long ago rectified and the Thermawing systems put back into service.

The owners like them. I've not flown it myself (my plane doesn't have either), but reports of those who have inadvertently encountered ice have said it was quite effective.


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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 05 Dec 2019, 18:51 
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To sum up 89 pages: This aircraft promises to do it all and have it all at a very reasonable price point and economical operations. .

I’d wager it’s a pig with lipstick on it


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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 06 Dec 2019, 04:29 
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It's just an amateur with big ideas and less than big engineering skills. I wish him a safe journey.

This kind of ambition usually takes a team of people with a variety of expertise.


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