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12 Aug 2020, 07:35 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


MRM (Honeywell)



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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 01 Dec 2019, 00:17 
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Oh I agree, the redrive sucks. That belt creep... over time on a longer flight?

:ohno:

It needs a real gearbox.

That aside I have no question the engine would run quite contentedly at 3,000 RPM. If you got the gear reduction right and could get it down to 2,500 RPM?

The engine is a good idea, and the better part of the project IMHO.

The wing surfaces? Possibly. That coolant gets pretty hot. 200+ deg coolant circulated continuously? It'd be interesting to test at any rate.


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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 01 Dec 2019, 11:39 
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“ This way you can run regular diesel or jet fuel without adding any Prist in order to prevent the fuel from thickening in the cold temperatures found at altitude.“ - http://www.raptor-aircraft.com/features/deicing.html

Having been on a few cold soak flights, it gets cold even outside of polar regions. It will be interesting to see if he has a fuel temperature gauge in each tank. If that system is warming the fuel up to 200F on the ground, it could get interesting to see what the pressure does to the wing as the fuel vaporizes. I would not want to be the lineman that makes the first lift and twist after The test pilot makes a long flight and long taxi, provided the belt lives.


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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 01 Dec 2019, 12:06 
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Username Protected wrote:
“ This way you can run regular diesel or jet fuel without adding any Prist in order to prevent the fuel from thickening in the cold temperatures found at altitude.“ - http://www.raptor-aircraft.com/features/deicing.html

Having been on a few cold soak flights, it gets cold even outside of polar regions. It will be interesting to see if he has a fuel temperature gauge in each tank. If that system is warming the fuel up to 200F on the ground, it could get interesting to see what the pressure does to the wing as the fuel vaporizes. I would not want to be the lineman that makes the first lift and twist after The test pilot makes a long flight and long taxi, provided the belt lives.


In addition, Prist doesn't have anything to do with the fuel thickening or freezing, it keeps the entrained water from freezing.


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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 01 Dec 2019, 12:11 
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Username Protected wrote:
I also like the idea of using the hot coolant piped through the wing and tail leading edges as a full-time anti-ice using the typical Audi after-run coolant pump setup to circulate it.
I don't think there's enough waste heat available. I'm eyeballing the frontal area of the stock Audi radiator that adequately dissipates the heat and comparing it to the total area of all the leading edges. NACA did extensive work on this in the 1930s-40s and their rule of thumb was that at 150 mph, 1000 BTU/hour was required per square foot of surface to be de-iced, from leading edge to 10-15% chord. Someone with more diesel experience can do the math and tell us how many BTU/hour waste heat the Audi will generate but I'm skeptical.
https://history.nasa.gov/SP-4219/Chapter2.html


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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 01 Dec 2019, 12:30 
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1hp is about 2500 BTU/hr and a rule of thumb for internal combustion engines is that output, waste heat (coolant), and waste heat (exhaust) are approximately equal.

Climb and cruise it would probably work just fine. During idle descent there might not be enough waste heat, but that's not an unusual predicament- lots of turbine bleed air-based deicing systems don't heat up enough during idle descents (common solution is you push the power up a bit and/or the engine does it for you when you have deice selected... which does affect energy management on a long descent).


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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 01 Dec 2019, 13:03 
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Good information, both, although I'm not certain it makes a large difference in terms of coolant temperature in terms of heat generation with power reduced to descent settings. Of course exhaust heat would be much, much less, but coolant exchange? Maybe.

I also believe the OAT would affect the heat required over the surface. If you have 10 deg F air with high humidity (freezing rain, snow) at 15,000' versus taking off in Minnesota in winter at minus 15 with a low overcast layer, the cooling effect is likely pretty different, requiring more heat for one situation than another.

It's an interesting discussion at any rate.


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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 01 Dec 2019, 18:36 
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When Audi runs at Le Mans they pretty much rebuild the engine(s) after 24 hours of high power operation. Of course that's not a diesel and they're stressing the engine's harder than the Raptor engine but I haven't seen any data that suggests this engine can make the HP he's claiming for 2000 hours. Maybe it can but at this point I'd say that's a big if. Also AFaIK if you use a gear reduction on a diesel you have to have some way to absorb the torque impulses and the elastometric belt accomplishes that. There are other options but they're not simple to get right either.

WRT the wing deicing, a long time ago I calculated the power required to cause a 20°C+ temperature rise on the forward one foot of a Bonanza wing and IIRC it was something like 25-50KW at 170 Kt, and that's a LOT of heat. For comparison, consider that the crankshaft of our HO engines runs in the 150-200°F range and the thermal conduction from crank to prop blade is pretty good but props still seem to have problems collecting ice when the OAT is below 0°C. And the surface area of a prop is considerably less than a wing.

Still, a viable diesel alternative would be mighty nice on my Baron. :peace:

Username Protected wrote:
Oh I agree, the redrive sucks. That belt creep... over time on a longer flight?

:ohno:

It needs a real gearbox.

That aside I have no question the engine would run quite contentedly at 3,000 RPM. If you got the gear reduction right and could get it down to 2,500 RPM?

The engine is a good idea, and the better part of the project IMHO.

The wing surfaces? Possibly. That coolant gets pretty hot. 200+ deg coolant circulated continuously? It'd be interesting to test at any rate.

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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 01 Dec 2019, 23:42 
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On the heated leading edge - Thermawing is an electrothermal resistance foil that is applied to the wing leading edges and powered by a separate alternator of about 7.5Kw output. (As I recall, 48v secondary output but I could be wrong on the voltage) The controller segments the strips and distributes current alternately through sections, as do some prop-heat controllers. This alternator can also run a completely electric air conditioning system.

Installed as an factory-option in Columbias.

It's nice, as unlike TKS, it doesn't run out and it doesn't dribble in the hangar when you're not using it.

Diesel engines don't produce as much waste heat as gasoline engines. Not sure what useful heat is available in this case.


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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 01 Dec 2019, 23:44 
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I'm just waiting for someone to take one of those airplanes running electrical current to every leading edge near a thunderstorm and see what happens.

:hide:

:ohno:

:whiteflag:


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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 01 Dec 2019, 23:56 
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Username Protected wrote:
I'm just waiting for someone to take one of those airplanes running electrical current to every leading edge near a thunderstorm and see what happens.

:hide:

:ohno:

:whiteflag:


You take a big aluminum airplane near thunderstorms all the time. Generally nothing bad happens. Same thing here. If the plane does get struck I’m not sure the leading edges will make much difference since the carbon fiber of the skins is deliberately made conductive in those planes anyway.

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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 02 Dec 2019, 00:16 
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Username Protected wrote:
I'm just waiting for someone to take one of those airplanes running electrical current to every leading edge near a thunderstorm and see what happens.
Your wait is over, that would be the 787. Over 900 delivered, flying all over the world, no doubt many have been near thunderstorms, no reports of thunderstorm-related problems.


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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 02 Dec 2019, 00:36 
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On the heated leading edge - Thermawing is …. Installed as a factory-option in Columbias.
But this AD required they all be disabled, https://www.federalregister.gov/documen ... -airplanes . When Cessna acquired the line they gave up on Thermawing and certified a TKS system instead.


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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 02 Dec 2019, 00:52 
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The common feature of electric de-ice systems on the 787, ThermaWing and Villinger is that they cycle the heat in sections. It would take too much power to heat the entire leading edge continuously, as Raptor intends. The alternator for the system on my plane puts out over 17 kW and that's with 20% less wing area to protect than the Raptor.


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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 02 Dec 2019, 01:14 
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Username Protected wrote:
The common feature of electric de-ice systems on the 787, ThermaWing and Villinger is that they cycle the heat in sections. It would take too much power to heat the entire leading edge continuously, as Raptor intends. The alternator for the system on my plane puts out over 17 kW and that's with 20% less wing area to protect than the Raptor.


That’s why we’re talking about using waste heat from the engine. For the VW diesel at stock power levels there’s at least 150kW of waste heat available.

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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 02 Dec 2019, 06:23 
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Username Protected wrote:
On the heated leading edge - Thermawing is …. Installed as a factory-option in Columbias.
But this AD required they all be disabled, https://www.federalregister.gov/documen ... -airplanes . When Cessna acquired the line they gave up on Thermawing and certified a TKS system instead.



Nope. You should find out the full story before making posts like that.

The AD was issued, but it was fixed and Thermawing continues to fly on many Columbias to this day.

As a matter of fact, it can still be installed new if you want it in your existing aircraft.

TKS was also offered in non-FIKI (as was Thermawing). In fact, they were offered at the same time.

The TTx was available in the last couple of years of production from Cessna with either a non-FIKI or full-FIKI TKS.

So now you know.

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