19 Apr 2024, 15:45 [ UTC - 5; DST ]
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Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die Posted: 07 Jan 2018, 21:04 |
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Joined: 11/22/12 Posts: 2595 Post Likes: +2352 Company: Retired Location: Lynnwood, WA (KPAE)
Aircraft: 1993 Bonanza A36TN
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Username Protected wrote: everything is impossible... until someone does it!... I am pulling for them Tabletop cold fusion and the "free energy generators" the web is full of would be undoubted boones to mankind, so if a friend mentioned he's about to place an order would you silently be "pulling for them" or would you be an "armchair quarterback" and point out where the numbers don't add up? How do you decide when it's appropriate to speak up and point out flaws or when to "supportive", keep quiet and let people get burned? For me, if Peter were funding the prototype himself and had it flying and demonstrating actual performance numbers before taking deposits, as Burt Rutan, Lance Neibauer, and the Klapmeier brothers did, I'd be applauding and waiting to see how it turns out. But instead he's gone down Jim Bede's BD-5 road. When they take people's money based only on promises, those promises deserve scrutiny. If some people say that makes me unsupportive and an armchair quarterback, so be it. Nothing would make me happier than for Peter to prove me wrong and come through with a truly revolutionary product. I would be thrilled. I would also be very, very surprised.
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Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die Posted: 07 Jan 2018, 21:08 |
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Joined: 01/18/11 Posts: 7689 Post Likes: +3686 Location: Lakeland , Ga
Aircraft: H35, T-41B, Aircoupe
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Username Protected wrote: everything is impossible... until someone does it!... I am pulling for them Tabletop cold fusion and the "free energy generators" the web is full of would be undoubted boones to mankind, so if a friend mentioned he's about to place an order would you silently be "pulling for them" or would you be an "armchair quarterback" and point out where the numbers don't add up? How do you decide when it's appropriate to speak up and point out flaws or when to "supportive", keep quiet and let people get burned? For me, if Peter were funding the prototype himself and had it flying and demonstrating actual performance numbers before taking deposits, as Burt Rutan, Lance Neibauer, and the Klapmeier brothers did, I'd be applauding and waiting to see how it turns out. But instead he's gone down Jim Bede's BD-5 road. When they take people's money based only on promises, those promises deserve scrutiny. If some people say that makes me unsupportive and an armchair quarterback, so be Nothing would make me happier than for Peter to prove me wrong and come through with a truly revolutionary product. I would be thrilled. I would also be very, very surprised.
Allegedly the deposit money is in escrow.
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Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die Posted: 07 Jan 2018, 21:14 |
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Joined: 07/12/17 Posts: 29 Post Likes: +12 Location: Atlanta, GA
Aircraft: A320, Sling TSi
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Username Protected wrote: Allegedly the deposit money is in escrow. Read through the thread where this has been discussed. The deposit money is not secure.
_________________ Mike M.
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Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die Posted: 07 Jan 2018, 21:27 |
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Joined: 12/10/07 Posts: 30697 Post Likes: +10719 Location: Minneapolis, MN (KFCM)
Aircraft: 1970 Baron B55
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Username Protected wrote: Allegedly the deposit money is in escrow. Has that escrow been audited by a reputable CPA firm? Are there any conditions that allow withdrawals before delivery? Has anyone pledged the funds in the escrow account as collateral? I'll admit I don't know a lot about how an escrow like this actually works in practice but it wouldn't surprise me that the deposited money as some use for the company. If it didn't why would they want it?
_________________ -lance
It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled.
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Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die Posted: 07 Jan 2018, 23:31 |
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Joined: 08/10/14 Posts: 1734 Post Likes: +832 Location: Northwest Arkansas (KVBT)
Aircraft: TBM850
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Username Protected wrote: Allegedly the deposit money is in escrow. Has that escrow been audited by a reputable CPA firm? Are there any conditions that allow withdrawals before delivery? Has anyone pledged the funds in the escrow account as collateral? I'll admit I don't know a lot about how an escrow like this actually works in practice but it wouldn't surprise me that the deposited money as some use for the company. If it didn't why would they want it?
They are using escrow.com
"Secured funds for this transaction will not be released to your Seller until you - the Buyer - confirm acceptance of this milestone in the Escrow.com site, and/or both parties have confirmed agreement to resolve your dispute should the milestone be rejected/returned.
In a dispute resolution process, funds remain secured with us until your dispute is resolved between the Buyer and Seller.
Once the Seller updates the transaction to "Seller delivered milestone" status (Step 3 in the escrow process) and you think that the services/milestone is not as you both agreed to, you may click "milestone received" then "milestone rejected" from your Escrow.com account.
Then, you will be prompted to "return" the rejected milestone to the Seller for them to inspect as well and confirm receipt/acceptance on their end.
Should the Seller "accept" the "rejected" milestone, we can have the transaction forwarded to our payments team to process the refund, which typically takes 5-14 business days (standard processing time frame) and funds returned to the same originating source.
Should the Seller "reject" the "returned" milestone, however, the transaction enters a dispute resolution process where you and your Seller have 14 calendar days (considered Negotiation Period) to resolve the dispute.
If still unresolved within this period, you have another 14 calendar days (considered Arbitration Period) where you and the Seller are required to start dispute resolution - an arbitration process administered by arbitrators from American Arbitration Association, JAMS Arbitration, or net-ARB.com."
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Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die Posted: 07 Jan 2018, 23:53 |
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Joined: 08/16/15 Posts: 3003 Post Likes: +5595 Location: Portland, OR
Aircraft: Prusinski'ing
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Username Protected wrote: They are using escrow.com
"Secured funds for this transaction will not be released to your Seller until you - the Buyer - confirm acceptance of this milestone in the Escrow.com site, and/or both parties have confirmed agreement to resolve your dispute should the milestone be rejected/returned.
In a dispute resolution process, funds remain secured with us until your dispute is resolved between the Buyer and Seller.
Once the Seller updates the transaction to "Seller delivered milestone" status (Step 3 in the escrow process) and you think that the services/milestone is not as you both agreed to, you may click "milestone received" then "milestone rejected" from your Escrow.com account.
Then, you will be prompted to "return" the rejected milestone to the Seller for them to inspect as well and confirm receipt/acceptance on their end.
Should the Seller "accept" the "rejected" milestone, we can have the transaction forwarded to our payments team to process the refund, which typically takes 5-14 business days (standard processing time frame) and funds returned to the same originating source.
Should the Seller "reject" the "returned" milestone, however, the transaction enters a dispute resolution process where you and your Seller have 14 calendar days (considered Negotiation Period) to resolve the dispute.
If still unresolved within this period, you have another 14 calendar days (considered Arbitration Period) where you and the Seller are required to start dispute resolution - an arbitration process administered by arbitrators from American Arbitration Association, JAMS Arbitration, or net-ARB.com."
What happens if one or both parties refuse to arbitrate? Account remains in limbo?
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Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die Posted: 08 Jan 2018, 12:22 |
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Joined: 11/06/10 Posts: 11898 Post Likes: +2854 Company: Looking Location: Outside Boston, or some hotel somewhere
Aircraft: None
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Username Protected wrote: everything is impossible... until someone does it!... I am pulling for them Tabletop cold fusion and the "free energy generators" the web is full of would be undoubted boones to mankind, so if a friend mentioned he's about to place an order would you silently be "pulling for them" or would you be an "armchair quarterback" and point out where the numbers don't add up? How do you decide when it's appropriate to speak up and point out flaws or when to "supportive", keep quiet and let people get burned? For me, if Peter were funding the prototype himself and had it flying and demonstrating actual performance numbers before taking deposits, as Burt Rutan, Lance Neibauer, and the Klapmeier brothers did, I'd be applauding and waiting to see how it turns out. But instead he's gone down Jim Bede's BD-5 road. When they take people's money based only on promises, those promises deserve scrutiny. If some people say that makes me unsupportive and an armchair quarterback, so be it. Nothing would make me happier than for Peter to prove me wrong and come through with a truly revolutionary product. I would be thrilled. I would also be very, very surprised.
I may have doubts because Peter has not taken the time to correct the website. However, in this accusation you are really off base. Jim Bede was "borrowing from Peter to pay Paul".
In Raptor's case, the money is held in escrow. Now the escrow may a be a little loose, however, if people were losing the money in the escrow (and the depositor is notified if funds are withdrawn); there would be screams all over the net. I have used escrow.com for a non-aviaition transaction. Went smooth, and was cheap compared to traditional lawyers and banks.
Based on bio, and some other posts, Peter made a fair amount of cash on a previous software company. And this is the primary basis of the current funding for the project.
Jeff K. (the "engineer") behind Raptor, did have a previous attempt to displace Velocity as the largest kit canard experimental company (there is some bad blood there, never did look into it), and Jeff was attempting to raise 3-5 million at the time to build the prototype. I would assume this is the same level of funding Peter brought to the table.
Tim
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Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die Posted: 08 Jan 2018, 12:29 |
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Joined: 12/03/14 Posts: 19252 Post Likes: +23622 Company: Ciholas, Inc Location: KEHR
Aircraft: C560V
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Username Protected wrote: Based on bio, and some other posts, Peter made a fair amount of cash on a previous software company. And this is the primary basis of the current funding for the project. Software guys running aviation companies never go bad. At least, that is what Vern told me... Mike C.
_________________ Email mikec (at) ciholas.com
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Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die Posted: 08 Jan 2018, 13:59 |
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Joined: 11/06/10 Posts: 11898 Post Likes: +2854 Company: Looking Location: Outside Boston, or some hotel somewhere
Aircraft: None
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Username Protected wrote: Based on bio, and some other posts, Peter made a fair amount of cash on a previous software company. And this is the primary basis of the current funding for the project. Software guys running aviation companies never go bad. At least, that is what Vern told me... Mike C.
rofl, well played. But not a point I was addressing
Tim
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Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die Posted: 09 Jan 2018, 11:53 |
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Joined: 02/10/12 Posts: 6827 Post Likes: +7940 Company: Minister of Pith Location: Florida
Aircraft: Piper PA28/140
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Username Protected wrote: This outfit has the want to but nothing I’ve seen indicates they have the know how to pull this off. I hope no one gets hurt. People get hurt when they do know what they're doing. Hopefully they test the crap out of this contraption UAV-stlye before committing a test pilot.
_________________ "No comment until the time limit is up."
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Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die Posted: 09 Jan 2018, 18:25 |
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Joined: 11/22/12 Posts: 2595 Post Likes: +2352 Company: Retired Location: Lynnwood, WA (KPAE)
Aircraft: 1993 Bonanza A36TN
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Username Protected wrote: When they take people's money based only on promises, those promises deserve scrutiny. In Raptor's case, the money is held in escrow....Peter made a fair amount of cash on a previous software company. And this is the primary basis of the current funding for the project. Not all of it. A previous post on this thread quoted a letter offering to move buyers to the front of the line in exchange for a $20K nonrefundable deposit. The next spot in line available at that time was #97. At $20K each, 100 spots is $2 million. So whatever your reading of their escrow arrangements they ARE taking people's money based only on promises. Right out of the Bede playbook.Quote: Jeff was attempting to raise 3-5 million at the time to build the prototype. I would assume this is the same level of funding Peter brought to the table. Assumptions are nice. But then why ask for the aforementioned $2 million? Plus that maybe-escrowed $2+ million, from than 1,000 deposits of $2,000 each, together comes out right at your $3-5 mil required. Huh. Probably a coincidence.
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Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die Posted: 09 Jan 2018, 19:44 |
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Joined: 08/10/14 Posts: 1734 Post Likes: +832 Location: Northwest Arkansas (KVBT)
Aircraft: TBM850
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Username Protected wrote: Not all of it. A previous post on this thread quoted a letter offering to move buyers to the front of the line in exchange for a $20K nonrefundable deposit. The next spot in line available at that time was #97. At $20K each, 100 spots is $2 million. So whatever your reading of their escrow arrangements they ARE taking people's money based only on promises. Right out of the Bede playbook. Skepticism is indeed warranted, but I think you are misinterpreting the referenced letter. Recipients were offered an opportunity to convert a small refundable deposit ($2k) into both a non-refundable contribution toward the cost of a completed Raptor ($20k) along with a partial ownership of the company and an earlier delivery slot. People who took this investment risk were doing something completely different than the 1000+ refundable deposit holders. This is not an audited company nor is it a risk-free opportunity, but if you are in to funding startups maybe you would be into something like that.
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Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die Posted: 23 Apr 2018, 14:48 |
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Joined: 01/26/15 Posts: 24 Post Likes: +3 Location: Maryland
Aircraft: Bonanza V35B
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Username Protected wrote: I'm thinking the same thing with the Raptor...
1. Bury all of the antennae into the carbon fibre 2. No rivets 3. No fixed gear
[/quote] FWIW, #2 & #3 are valid advantages for the Raptor, but #1 is not. Carbon fiber composite is practically as conductive as aluminum (at radio frequencies), so you can't bury antennas into it, like you can with fiberglass (non-conductive) composite aircraft. BTW, I hope the Raptor works out (meets enough of its goals to make someone want to buy & fly it). I appreciate all of the foregoing comments that provide mathematical and/or referenced data by which to evaluate the probable validity of the claims.
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