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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 03 Nov 2019, 18:24 
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Username Protected wrote:

And you respond with insults. Classy.


It is not an insult man. Seriously. Sorry you took it that way. I obviously need to work on my delivery. The fault here is mine. Surely wasn't meant that way. Was just an observation. I would be %#$@ on my best day at what you do with excellence on your worst day.


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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 03 Nov 2019, 18:34 
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Username Protected wrote:
I don’t know of any fast airplane with this much aileron play. Scary.


Had the same thought. Exactly.


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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 03 Nov 2019, 18:38 
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hey CC, off topic so i'll only post once here, any info on the cause on this crash?
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/21/busi ... at-56.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comp_Air_9

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nightwatch...


Last edited on 03 Nov 2019, 18:45, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 03 Nov 2019, 18:43 
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Username Protected wrote:
I don’t know of any fast airplane with this much aileron play. Scary.


Had the same thought. Exactly.


This is something that bothers the crap out of me. Like literally would not get in the plane.

So maybe the question that arises is, given the vast damn knowledge in this forum, is would we as a community let this guy crater it in (if we are right) or will we pull together and get our voices heard in a reasonable way? Maybe even give the fella a deserved(?) helping hand?

Just cause he is trying don't mean he is perfect.

Guy is obviously smart and is obviously tired.

Are we excused then from helping?

Last edited on 03 Nov 2019, 18:53, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 03 Nov 2019, 18:44 
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Username Protected wrote:
hey CC, off topic so i'll only post once here, any info on the cause on this crash?
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/21/busi ... at-56.html


No idea man. First I saw of it. Sorry.


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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 03 Nov 2019, 19:19 
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Username Protected wrote:
The belt/drive train/reduction mechanism is the weak point. We shall see. Yes?

So looking into that....

Question.. will the stress on the belt/drive rig ever be greater than when the ship is tethered and running full out on the ground on a cold morning at sea level?

Can it be?

Why not?

in case missed
http://www.epi-eng.com/propeller_reduct ... erview.htm
Quote:
In order for ANY belt drive to operate correctly, a certain amount of preload is required (covered in detail in our BELT DRIVES section). The high capacity toothbelts are made from fibers which cause the belts to shrink with increasing temperature, and conversely, expand as they get cooler. The metal sprockets and housings, often aluminum, behave just the opposite, and expand as temperature increases. The sum result is that the belt preload, typically set in a hangar environment, increases dramatically as the temperature of the components risses from the setup temperature, and conversely, decreases in colder temperatures.

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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 03 Nov 2019, 19:23 
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Username Protected wrote:
The belt/drive train/reduction mechanism is the weak point. We shall see. Yes?

So looking into that....

Question.. will the stress on the belt/drive rig ever be greater than when the ship is tethered and running full out on the ground on a cold morning at sea level?

Can it be?

Why not?

in case missed
http://www.epi-eng.com/propeller_reduct ... erview.htm
Quote:
In order for ANY belt drive to operate correctly, a certain amount of preload is required (covered in detail in our BELT DRIVES section). The high capacity toothbelts are made from fibers which cause the belts to shrink with increasing temperature, and conversely, expand as they get cooler. The metal sprockets and housings, often aluminum, behave just the opposite, and expand as temperature increases. The sum result is that the belt preload, typically set in a hangar environment, increases dramatically as the temperature of the components risses from the setup temperature, and conversely, decreases in colder temperatures.


Yeah... no.. Agree.. The teeth jumping is a real issue. But if the ailerons won't respond under flight loads the engine/redrive ain't the problem? Just playing it out as I see it right now. Happy to be disabused of my wrong thoughts.

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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 03 Nov 2019, 19:29 
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Company: Water Cleaners
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Username Protected wrote:
The belt/drive train/reduction mechanism is the weak point. We shall see. Yes?

So looking into that....

Question.. will the stress on the belt/drive rig ever be greater than when the ship is tethered and running full out on the ground on a cold morning at sea level?

Can it be?

Why not?

in case missed
http://www.epi-eng.com/propeller_reduct ... erview.htm
Quote:
In order for ANY belt drive to operate correctly, a certain amount of preload is required (covered in detail in our BELT DRIVES section). The high capacity toothbelts are made from fibers which cause the belts to shrink with increasing temperature, and conversely, expand as they get cooler. The metal sprockets and housings, often aluminum, behave just the opposite, and expand as temperature increases. The sum result is that the belt preload, typically set in a hangar environment, increases dramatically as the temperature of the components risses from the setup temperature, and conversely, decreases in colder temperatures.


[Admin edit] brilliant. Great catch. Solution if indeed this is a problem? I missed this. Makes perfect sense. Yes? How do you fix this?

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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 03 Nov 2019, 19:37 
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Joined: 02/28/17
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Username Protected wrote:
a.) Where is it coming from. (slop in the linkage/cables/etc. or something else)
b.) How much is there (if any) when the stick is centered and locked down. Seems hard to believe there is not some in that case. Could be wrong.
c.) How much force is required to deflect it back to that point?
d.) Where will the surface deflect to under maximum flying speeds/pressure.
e.) How much is due the modulus of elasticity in the materials in the aileron itself.. i.e. is it in the bell-crank linkage, hinge, or after that, back somewhere in the wing, where/why?
f.) How does that compare to the velocity/other similar builds with similar control linkages and material construction.
g.) What does he know the make the assertion, "I am ok with that." that I don't. Or is he wrong?

Don't know the answers.

etc. Very curious to hear thoughtful thoughts.


I can answer F. About 1/16" on my Velocity. Maybe 3/32".


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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 03 Nov 2019, 19:42 
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Joined: 10/06/19
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Company: Water Cleaners
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Username Protected wrote:
a.) Where is it coming from. (slop in the linkage/cables/etc. or something else)
b.) How much is there (if any) when the stick is centered and locked down. Seems hard to believe there is not some in that case. Could be wrong.
c.) How much force is required to deflect it back to that point?
d.) Where will the surface deflect to under maximum flying speeds/pressure.
e.) How much is due the modulus of elasticity in the materials in the aileron itself.. i.e. is it in the bell-crank linkage, hinge, or after that, back somewhere in the wing, where/why?
f.) How does that compare to the velocity/other similar builds with similar control linkages and material construction.
g.) What does he know the make the assertion, "I am ok with that." that I don't. Or is he wrong?

Don't know the answers.

etc. Very curious to hear thoughtful thoughts.


I can answer F. About 1/16" on my Velocity. Maybe 3/32".


Thank you!! How much load do you put on the surface (weight wise) to get that deflection? Have you measured (or can you as an example) what the deflection is with flight loads? And can someone here tell us what that is? 10lbs? 50lbs? I have no idea. Well.. I have an idea... but no practical knowledge. Anyone? Bueller?

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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 03 Nov 2019, 20:10 
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IV-P has pushrods and mine had about 1/16 of an inch of slop which is possibly even too much for a 260kt airplane. Cables in this flexible flyer are probably not the best idea and could result in flutter with this much slop.


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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 03 Nov 2019, 20:17 
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Username Protected wrote:
IV-P has pushrods and mine had about 1/16 of an inch of slop which is possibly even too much for a 260kt airplane. Cables in this flexible flyer are probably not the best idea and could result in flutter with this much slop.


Would you mind looking at the installation vids and identifying the problem? Are we running down the right path? Know there are some old souls here. Fellas? You have seen this played out before? Time to ask the gray beards at the city gates?


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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 03 Nov 2019, 20:20 
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Username Protected wrote:
IV-P has pushrods and mine had about 1/16 of an inch of slop which is possibly even too much for a 260kt airplane. Cables in this flexible flyer are probably not the best idea and could result in flutter with this much slop.


Would you mind looking at the installation vids and identifying the problem? Are we running down the right path? Know there are some old souls here. Fellas? You have seen this played out before? Time to ask the gray beards at the city gates?


Post link

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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 03 Nov 2019, 20:20 
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Joined: 05/01/14
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Aircraft: TU-104
If it bounces during taxi, I would be EXTREMELY worried about flutter at TAS well below 300 knots. Does he have an airframe parachute (and a prop brake) installed for the test flights?

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 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 03 Nov 2019, 20:24 
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Food for thought...

http://www.velocityaircraft.com/newsv5/hotrod.html

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