28 Mar 2024, 15:59 [ UTC - 5; DST ]
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Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die Posted: 04 Jan 2018, 13:29 |
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Joined: 11/22/10 Posts: 1147 Post Likes: +350 Company: Stanford University Location: Brentwood, CA - C83
Aircraft: RV12, RV10
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Username Protected wrote: Source? I don't actually think what you said is true.
Note that if you allow E-AB rates to exclude a certain high risk period, we should allow the same for the overall GA average.
It should be noted that the overall GA average includes the E-AB sub category. Overall GA would improve if E-AB accidents are removed from those numbers.
Mike C. Source...the NTSB and the FAA. You should really read the report. And rather than just make statements, you should try just searching the topic. I get a kick out of how you manage to blow by the whole point of the post. I understand that you don’t like the Raptor, but try to be objective. Try google for “Safety of experimental aircraft”. You could also read https://www.ntsb.gov/safety/safety-stud ... SS1201.pdfAdditionally, the whole point of Phase 1 testing of experimental aircraft, which is the first 5-40 hours of flight hours, is to overcome the dangers of the first few hours of flight and minimize impact to the safety of others, such as not having passengers and conducting Phase 1 over unpopulated areas. FAA Order 8130.2 covers this in detail. Mike, it’s easy to sit back and poke holes at others, such as saying I’m wrong. But the data is out there and publicly available, you just need to do the homework.
_________________ DISCLAIMER: I'm just a jaded engineer and my advice is worth exactly what you're paying for it...
Last edited on 04 Jan 2018, 13:47, edited 1 time in total.
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Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die Posted: 04 Jan 2018, 13:40 |
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Joined: 12/03/14 Posts: 19252 Post Likes: +23613 Company: Ciholas, Inc Location: KEHR
Aircraft: C560V
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Username Protected wrote: Source...read the report. Be helpful and include a URL to the specific one you mean. Mike C.
_________________ Email mikec (at) ciholas.com
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Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die Posted: 04 Jan 2018, 14:40 |
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Joined: 12/03/14 Posts: 19252 Post Likes: +23613 Company: Ciholas, Inc Location: KEHR
Aircraft: C560V
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Username Protected wrote: Source...the NTSB and the FAA. You should really read the report. I did. I didn't find a statement in the report that supported your statement: "then after [the first few hours] the fixed wing E-AB accident rate is actually on par with GA on average." Did I miss it, or is the above your interpretation of the report, not what was actually said? I did find this statement: "A large proportion of accidents occurs early in the operating life of a new E-AB aircraft, or shortly after being purchased by a new owner." That is NOT saying later hours are equal to GA aircraft generally, though. I can see how such a statement might be misinterpreted, however. Quote: Mike, it’s easy to sit back and poke holes at others, such as saying I’m wrong. Never said you were wrong, said I don't think you are right and asked for evidence. Or to put it another way, I have not seen enough evidence to believe what you wrote. Mike C.
_________________ Email mikec (at) ciholas.com
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Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die Posted: 04 Jan 2018, 14:42 |
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Joined: 08/03/10 Posts: 1562 Post Likes: +1781 Company: D&M Leasing Houston Location: Katy, TX (KTME)
Aircraft: CitationV/C180
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Username Protected wrote: I’m going to go out on a limb here and predict that no one will ever die in the crash of a homebuilt Raptor. Many will die whilst waiting for delivery however....
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Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die Posted: 04 Jan 2018, 16:31 |
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Joined: 08/26/15 Posts: 9514 Post Likes: +8745 Company: airlines (*CRJ,A320) Location: Florida panhandle
Aircraft: Travel Air,T-6B,etc*
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Username Protected wrote: I did find this statement:
"A large proportion of accidents occurs early in the operating life of a new E-AB aircraft, or shortly after being purchased by a new owner." Within those accidents, fuel system malfunctions during the first flight are a particularly large proportion.
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Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die Posted: 05 Jan 2018, 09:25 |
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Joined: 02/28/17 Posts: 1206 Post Likes: +1180 Location: Panama City, FL
Aircraft: Velocity XL-RG
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Username Protected wrote: And it is important to note that experiental aircraft are not certified to a safety standard, nor are they required to comply with FAA aircraft safety standards - in fact, they're required to be placarded to show that "This aircraft does not comply with Federal safety regulations for standard aircraft". Just because an E/AB aircraft is not required to comply with Federal safety safety standards does not mean it doesn't meet (or even exceed) those standards.
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Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die Posted: 05 Jan 2018, 09:33 |
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Joined: 08/16/15 Posts: 2867 Post Likes: +3576 Location: Ogden UT
Aircraft: Piper M600
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Username Protected wrote: I did find this statement:
"A large proportion of accidents occurs early in the operating life of a new E-AB aircraft, or shortly after being purchased by a new owner."
Mike C. Kind of interesting and seems reasonable, but would not the record of certified GA also be pretty rough if you looked at the first 50 hours time in type? Conversely if you excluded accidents of the first 50 hours TIT would not the GA accident rate also be much better? Seems like at least in some of the types I closely follow time in type seems to be one of the biggest factors in safety.
_________________ Chuck Ivester Piper M600 Ogden UT
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Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die Posted: 05 Jan 2018, 10:49 |
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Joined: 03/27/10 Posts: 331 Post Likes: +196 Location: GTU - Georgetown, Tx
Aircraft: 65 Deb C33, RV-6
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Username Protected wrote: I’m going to go out on a limb here and predict that no one will ever die in the crash of a homebuilt Raptor. Many will die whilst waiting for delivery however....
I don't care who you are -- that is funny :-)
_________________ B-25 co-pilot RV6 Formation Debonair CFI/CFII/MEI Washed up Fighter Pilot (F-4s, F-16s)
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Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die Posted: 05 Jan 2018, 23:46 |
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Joined: 12/03/14 Posts: 19252 Post Likes: +23613 Company: Ciholas, Inc Location: KEHR
Aircraft: C560V
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Username Protected wrote: They seem to have good funding behind the project from what I can tell, because they spend money like its going out of style and there is no indication thats an issue. Red flag. They probably think "just get the proto flying and the money will roll in". How far from the truth that will be. Building and flying a prototype is about 5% of the project. Then one day, money will be an issue and they will realize it should have been an issue from the start. Mike C.
_________________ Email mikec (at) ciholas.com
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Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die Posted: 06 Jan 2018, 11:42 |
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Joined: 08/10/14 Posts: 1730 Post Likes: +828 Location: Northwest Arkansas (KVBT)
Aircraft: TBM850
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Username Protected wrote: because they spend money like its going out of style... I disagree with this, as they don't seem to be doing anything wasteful. Well funded and conservative are a good combination.
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Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die Posted: 06 Jan 2018, 12:13 |
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Joined: 12/01/12 Posts: 490 Post Likes: +338
Aircraft: AA1B,PA28,PA18,CE500
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Username Protected wrote: And it is important to note that experiental aircraft are not certified to a safety standard, nor are they required to comply with FAA aircraft safety standards - in fact, they're required to be placarded to show that "This aircraft does not comply with Federal safety regulations for standard aircraft". Just because an E/AB aircraft is not required to comply with Federal safety safety standards does not mean it doesn't meet (or even exceed) those standards.
Excluding the kits that are essentially exact copies of certified aircraft (super cub clone) I don’t think any E-AB plane would pass FAA certification. Lancair that had a lot of experience in the kit and design industry barely made it thru certification. This was a plane based on the ES. Aerodynamically nothing like the IV. The ES flies great. But still the Columbia ended up being a complete redesign.
But that’s fine. I see you have a velocity, so you enjoy the performance and flexibility of experimental. So do I. But to think they are just as well designed, tested or could pass isn’t looking at it objectively.
I love the way velocitys look. Sleek and graceful.
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Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die Posted: 06 Jan 2018, 12:21 |
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Joined: 02/27/08 Posts: 3167 Post Likes: +1251 Location: Galveston, TX
Aircraft: Malibu PA46-310P
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Username Protected wrote: I’m going to go out on a limb here and predict that no one will ever die in the crash of a homebuilt Raptor. You could make that statement bulletproof by adding “no one will ever die in the crash of a Audi diesel powered, pressurized, 3600 hundred mile range, 250 kts raptor aircraft.”
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