24 Apr 2024, 05:35 [ UTC - 5; DST ]
|
| Username Protected |
Message |
|
Username Protected
|
Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die  Posted: 14 Dec 2017, 15:24 |
|
 |
|
|
 |
Joined: 12/10/07
Posts: 30753
Post Likes: +10749
Location: Minneapolis, MN (KFCM)
Aircraft: 1970 Baron B55
|
|
Username Protected wrote: Numbers came from Lancair's web site. You'd better tell them to fix it. :-)
The 300 knots number came from the turboprop version. Which has a little more HP than 350. Quote: On a TSIO-550? In level flight?
Show me.
Mike C. A friend has a TSIO550 powered non-P Lancair IV and IIRC his top cruise speed is around 230-240KTAS.
_________________
-lance
It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled.
|
|
| Top |
|
|
Username Protected
|
Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die Posted: 14 Dec 2017, 15:41 |
|
|
|
|
 |
Joined: 08/10/14
Posts: 1734
Post Likes: +832
Location: Northwest Arkansas (KVBT)
Aircraft: TBM850
|
|
Username Protected wrote: A friend has a TSIO550 powered non-P Lancair IV and IIRC his top cruise speed is around 230-240KTAS. Michael T. gets 270kts in his IV-P viewtopic.php?f=49&t=125830
|
|
| Top |
|
|
Username Protected
|
Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die Posted: 14 Dec 2017, 15:46 |
|
|
|
|
Joined: 10/26/16
Posts: 496
Post Likes: +692
|
|
Username Protected wrote: A friend has a TSIO550 powered non-P Lancair IV and IIRC his top cruise speed is around 230-240KTAS. That must be a pretty bad build, considering Cessna TTX can cruise at these speeds too with times and half the wing area and gear hanging out.
|
|
| Top |
|
|
Username Protected
|
Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die Posted: 14 Dec 2017, 15:49 |
|
|
|
|
Joined: 10/26/16
Posts: 496
Post Likes: +692
|
|
Username Protected wrote: A friend has a TSIO550 powered non-P Lancair IV and IIRC his top cruise speed is around 230-240KTAS. Michael T. gets 270kts in his IV-P viewtopic.php?f=49&t=125830
And that's at 17,500 and only 16gph LOP. Go higher, push the power forward ROP and 290-300 is doable for a little while as the cylinder temps creep up.
The PropJet IV-P will smack right thru 330knots. It's a horrible aircraft in pretty much every department but top speed. But the claims of 220knot cruise speed by Mike are way off the charts. The engine loafs at 270knots in that aircraft.
|
|
| Top |
|
|
Username Protected
|
Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die Posted: 14 Dec 2017, 16:03 |
|
|
|
|
 |
Joined: 05/11/10
Posts: 12404
Post Likes: +11415
Location: Indiana
Aircraft: Cessna 185, RV-7
|
|
Username Protected wrote: The Raptor website says you'll spend 2 or 3 weeks at their build center to fulfill the 51% rule. This is not 1500 hours additional labor. Glasair's "Two Weeks to Taxi" program costs $200k and up. The Raptor will fly twice as fast and twice as high (in pressurized comfort), take roughly the same time to build, and cost $70K less. Sign me up! When it's ready, I'll just move the Terrafugia to the garage.
|
|
| Top |
|
|
Username Protected
|
Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die Posted: 14 Dec 2017, 16:05 |
|
|
|
|
Joined: 01/18/11
Posts: 7690
Post Likes: +3686
Location: Lakeland , Ga
Aircraft: H35, T-41B, Aircoupe
|
|
|
51% is not time it is steps required. The maker can be quite creative.
|
|
| Top |
|
|
Username Protected
|
Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die Posted: 14 Dec 2017, 17:00 |
|
|
|
|
 |
Joined: 01/30/09
Posts: 3354
Post Likes: +1963
Location: $ilicon Vall€y
Aircraft: Columbia 400
|
|
Well I'll chime in as a Columbia 400 owner. TSIO-550-C9 derated to 310hp on the label. OK'd for continuous 85% cruise since it is de-rated from the same family engine's 350hp nameplate. The Columbia/Corvallis/TTx all have the same airframe and flying characteristics. Top speed is claimed as 238kts true at FL250 under best conditions, ROP. Actually, the performance tables say you get add 4kts to that by having the nosewheel pant installed.   In reality, I haven't actually tried to do that. Let's just say, the performance in reality is very pleasing, the efficiency of LOP operations are fantastic and I really enjoy the airplane for what it really does, with little regard to what the POH seems to imply it will do on paper. I mostly cruise in the mid-teens because I don't like the O2-mask flight levels. I can deal with a cannula. I will not venture above around FL200 without a second pilot and a second O2 system in use. Lessons from years of flying a non-pressurized turbocharged twin. The Columbia 400 is the certified airplane from Lancair. They had to jump through a lot of hoops to get the Lancair EA-B to the certified Columbia 300 (not many of those) and then the Columbia 350. A whole, whole lot more hoops had to be jumped through to certify the 400 (turbo version). Turned out they couldn't just drop a TSIO550 in place of the IO550 in the 350 and call it a day. Aerodynamic changes were required to get to full Pt. 23 certification. The bottom line is that Lancair was pretty good at this composite airplane thing. They couldn't build a non-pressurized, fixed-gear, composite aircraft for this kind of money 15 years ago. They had a pretty strong starting point when they went to certificated products - and they went bankrupt doing it (not all their fault - but the same risks face anyone who wants to be in this business) I think the premise of adding a brand new powerplant, pressurization and all the costs of starting up a business to build them, there's not a snowball's chance of everything being promised.
|
|
| Top |
|
|
Username Protected
|
Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die Posted: 14 Dec 2017, 19:27 |
|
|
|
|
Joined: 12/03/14
Posts: 19252
Post Likes: +23622
Company: Ciholas, Inc
Location: KEHR
Aircraft: C560V
|
|
Username Protected wrote: I'm not sure what website you're referring to. http://lancair.com/iv-ivp/The first hit when you google "lancair iv-p". Performance Specs: – Cruise 253 mph at 24,000 ft, Range 1,347 nm, Endurance 6.0 hrs, Rate of Climb 1500 ft/min.Mike C.
_________________
Email mikec (at) ciholas.com
|
|
| Top |
|
|
Username Protected
|
Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die Posted: 14 Dec 2017, 19:34 |
|
|
|
|
Joined: 12/03/14
Posts: 19252
Post Likes: +23622
Company: Ciholas, Inc
Location: KEHR
Aircraft: C560V
|
|
Quote: Finally set up for cruise at 75-percent power, the IV-P chugged right up to 195 knots indicated, for 278 knots true, or Mach 0.46 Without correcting for IAS to CAS (errors in this tend to increase with speed), and for temperature (ISA +/-?), this computation is suspect. In any case, this isn't "easily over 300 knots", is it? Mike C.
_________________
Email mikec (at) ciholas.com
|
|
| Top |
|
|
Username Protected
|
Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die Posted: 14 Dec 2017, 19:36 |
|
|
|
|
Joined: 12/03/14
Posts: 19252
Post Likes: +23622
Company: Ciholas, Inc
Location: KEHR
Aircraft: C560V
|
|
Username Protected wrote: But the claims of 220knot cruise speed by Lancair are way off the charts. FIFY. Mike C.
_________________
Email mikec (at) ciholas.com
|
|
| Top |
|
|
Username Protected
|
Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die Posted: 14 Dec 2017, 20:08 |
|
|
|
|
Joined: 10/26/16
Posts: 496
Post Likes: +692
|
|
Username Protected wrote: Quote: Finally set up for cruise at 75-percent power, the IV-P chugged right up to 195 knots indicated, for 278 knots true, or Mach 0.46 Without correcting for IAS to CAS (errors in this tend to increase with speed), and for temperature (ISA +/-?), this computation is suspect. In any case, this isn't "easily over 300 knots", is it? Mike C. I see you "missed" out on the CAFE report...I'm not surprised. You've responded to every post but that one, which presented you with all the information proving IV-P speeds, including leading edge mounted calibrated pitot probe. Considering that IV-Ps have hit 290knots at Reno before, well below FL250, yes, I'll stick to my easily over 300knots at FL250 with full throttle. The aircraft has a flat plate area of 2sqft and 98sqft of wing.
|
|
| Top |
|
|
Username Protected
|
Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die Posted: 14 Dec 2017, 20:25 |
|
|
|
|
Joined: 09/06/11
Posts: 791
Post Likes: +387
|
|
Username Protected wrote: The one thing I do admire about Raptor is the "go big or go home" mentality.
They didn't try to do ONE thing better than anyone, they claimed to do EVERYTHING better than everyone!
300 knots! But wait....
Pressurize!! But wait....
3600 NM range!!! But wait....
7 GPH!!!! But wait....
1600 LBS useful load!!!! But wait....
4-5 seats !!!!! But wait....
All for the amazing introductory super low price $130k !!!!!!!!!!
As someone who leads sales meetings every week for the past 20 years, I have amused myself imagining the sales team and engineering team at Cirrus watching the videos posted by Raptor and discussing their thoughts afterwards. I enjoy the very transparent building process. They are very straightforward about where they are running into issues and needing do overs. I rather want to rewatch Peters EAA presentation from two years ago to see how some of the aerodynamic assumptions were made. That quote above reminded me of this ... https://youtu.be/wCnBR6u888g
|
|
| Top |
|
|
Username Protected
|
Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die Posted: 14 Dec 2017, 20:31 |
|
|
|
|
Joined: 10/26/16
Posts: 496
Post Likes: +692
|
|
Username Protected wrote: But the claims of 220knot cruise speed by Lancair are way off the charts. FIFY. Mike C.
Let me point to another section of their website, Lancair MAKO, also claiming the same speed of 253mph, with gear hanging out and 46sqft more of wing area.
http://lancair.com/mako/
Maybe, just maybe the fellows whom purchased Lancair assets screwed up when setting up their website. Considering just above they are claiming 345mph.
|
|
| Top |
|
|
Username Protected
|
Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die Posted: 14 Dec 2017, 22:01 |
|
|
|
|
Joined: 12/01/12
Posts: 490
Post Likes: +338
Aircraft: AA1B,PA28,PA18,CE500
|
|
Username Protected wrote: I'm not sure what website you're referring to. http://lancair.com/iv-ivp/The first hit when you google "lancair iv-p". Performance Specs: – Cruise 253 mph at 24,000 ft, Range 1,347 nm, Endurance 6.0 hrs, Rate of Climb 1500 ft/min.Mike C.
These numbers jive with a max range profile. Not a max speed profile.
This pic was just posted on the Lancair site.
Due to static port install errors many Lancairs end up reading 5-10ktas high when in the fl at cruise speed.
The prototype would supposedly hit the 300ktas. But it was super light and optimized. Reno racers are pushing well over 50”map. So not a good data point. Mine is draggy. Belly AC unit. I plan 240ktas 16pgh at 16-17k. Fl220-fl230 is sweet spot for speed. But higher temps.
Please login or Register for a free account via the link in the red bar above to download files.
|
|
| Top |
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum
|
Terms of Service | Forum FAQ | Contact Us
BeechTalk, LLC is the quintessential Beechcraft Owners & Pilots Group providing a
forum for the discussion of technical, practical, and entertaining issues relating to all Beech aircraft. These include
the Bonanza (both V-tail and straight-tail models), Baron, Debonair, Duke, Twin Bonanza, King Air, Sierra, Skipper, Sport, Sundowner,
Musketeer, Travel Air, Starship, Queen Air, BeechJet, and Premier lines of airplanes, turboprops, and turbojets.
BeechTalk, LLC is not affiliated or endorsed by the Beechcraft Corporation, its subsidiaries, or affiliates.
Beechcraft™, King Air™, and Travel Air™ are the registered trademarks of the Beechcraft Corporation.
Copyright© BeechTalk, LLC 2007-2024
|
|
|
|
