banner
banner

19 Mar 2024, 00:35 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


Aviation Fabricators (Top Banner)



Reply to topic  [ 4045 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15 ... 270  Next
Username Protected Message
 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 25 Apr 2017, 14:02 
Offline


 Profile




Joined: 01/18/11
Posts: 7681
Post Likes: +3685
Location: Lakeland , Ga
Aircraft: H35, T-41B, Aircoupe
300hp version of this one would be about right


Top

 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 25 Apr 2017, 15:12 
Offline




User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 12/10/07
Posts: 30319
Post Likes: +10475
Location: Minneapolis, MN (KFCM)
Aircraft: 1970 Baron B55
Username Protected wrote:
Lance is saying that the usual problem of per-combustion-event energy transfers into and back out of the propeller (described by the articles linked below) is much worse with a diesel engine.

http://www.epi-eng.com/piston_engine_technology/torsional_excitation_from_piston_engines.htm

http://www.epi-eng.com/propeller_technology/propeller_vibration_issues.htm


If Lance had just stated torsional vibration, I would have followed :D
The PSRU on the CMI CD-155 (Thielert) has a clutch pulley to reduce TV; Diamond on the AE-300 went with a heavier TV fly wheel disk (I forget the actual name).

Tim


Sorry :oops: I thought that part was obvious. :D
_________________
-lance

It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled.


Top

 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 25 Apr 2017, 15:36 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 11/06/10
Posts: 11879
Post Likes: +2846
Company: Looking
Location: Outside Boston, or some hotel somewhere
Aircraft: None
Username Protected wrote:
Sorry :oops: I thought that part was obvious. :D


:thumbup: No issue, I am a computer geek, not an engineer....

Tim


Top

 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 25 Apr 2017, 16:15 
Offline




User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 12/10/07
Posts: 30319
Post Likes: +10475
Location: Minneapolis, MN (KFCM)
Aircraft: 1970 Baron B55
Username Protected wrote:
Sorry :oops: I thought that part was obvious. :D


:thumbup: No issue, I am a computer geek, not an engineer....

Tim

Just yanking your chain. I'm actually a computer geek first and engineer second.
_________________
-lance

It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled.


Top

 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 25 Apr 2017, 16:27 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 11/06/10
Posts: 11879
Post Likes: +2846
Company: Looking
Location: Outside Boston, or some hotel somewhere
Aircraft: None
Username Protected wrote:
Just yanking your chain. I'm actually a computer geek first and engineer second.


CS major for me. Hard to believe I have been in the IT field for 28 years now. :scratch:
Now I think I was an idiot for dumping the second major, I was just a few classes shy of an Econ degree at the same time and going for a graduate degree.

Anyway, I think the Raptor using an auto engine conversion is dramatically increasing the engineering complexity. And I just do not see the reward for such complexity.

The real BSFC of diesel auto engines, or aviation conversions such as Thierlert and Diamond, is only a few points better then WOT LOP. An EFI system will get you most of the way there, for a lot less complexity on an old proven Lycoming or Continental. The economics and the engineering around the auto conversion just do not add up to my simple brain.

Tim


Top

 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 25 Apr 2017, 16:32 
Offline


 Profile




Joined: 11/03/08
Posts: 14496
Post Likes: +22799
Location: Peachtree City GA / Stoke-On-Trent UK
Aircraft: A33
Username Protected wrote:
An EFI system will get you most of the way there, for a lot less complexity on an old proven Lycoming or Continental. The economics and the engineering around the auto conversion just do not add up to my simple brain.

Tim

https://www.lycoming.com/engines/ie2


Top

 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 25 Apr 2017, 16:33 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 02/27/08
Posts: 3154
Post Likes: +1234
Location: Galveston, TX
Aircraft: Malibu PA46-310P
And we haven't even started talking avionics/panel...


Top

 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 25 Apr 2017, 16:47 
Offline




User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 12/10/07
Posts: 30319
Post Likes: +10475
Location: Minneapolis, MN (KFCM)
Aircraft: 1970 Baron B55
Username Protected wrote:
And we haven't even started talking avionics/panel...

Let's see... $100k for the full integrated avionics suite leaves almost $50k for the airplane and engine. Hmmm.

_________________
-lance

It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled.


Top

 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 25 Apr 2017, 17:00 
Offline


 Profile




Joined: 01/18/11
Posts: 7681
Post Likes: +3685
Location: Lakeland , Ga
Aircraft: H35, T-41B, Aircoupe
I am assuming they would use G3x


Top

 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 25 Apr 2017, 18:27 
Offline



User avatar
 WWW  Profile




Joined: 10/26/08
Posts: 4636
Post Likes: +1024
Location: Pinehurst, NC (KSOP)
Aircraft: 1965 Bonanza S35
Username Protected wrote:
And we haven't even started talking avionics/panel...

Let's see... $100k for the full integrated avionics suite leaves almost $50k for the airplane and engine. Hmmm.




This from their site...

Quote:
The BRS parachute will be an optional extra that normally retails at around $15,000. We will be trying to get it for close to $10,000.

Item Qty Retail Cost Total Cost
Carbon Fiber Air Frame 1 $40,000.00 $40,000.00
3.0L Audi TDI 1 $22,000.00 $22,000.00
Garmin G3X Touch 2 screen option 1 $9,399.00 $9,399.00
Garmin Autopilot pitch and roll 1 $1,500.00 $1,500.00
Garmin Autopilot Controller 1 $750.00 $750.00
Garmin Heated AOA Pitot 1 $299.00 $299.00
Garmin GTN750 1 $14,895.00 $14,895.00
Garmin GTR200 secondary Comm 1 $1,199.00 $1,199.00
Garmin GMA35 1 $845.00 $845.00
Garmin GDL39R ADS-B 1 $799.00 $799.00
Garmin GTX23 ES Transponder 1 $2,199.00 $2,199.00
Garmin IFR navigation adapter 1 $425.00 $425.00
Garmin addtnl GSU25 ADAHRS 1 $799.00 $799.00
Antennas/Connectors/Harness/Misc Avionics $2,000.00 $2,000.00
Vertical Power VPX Pro 1 $1,995.00 $1,995.00
Vertical Power Connector Kit 1 $160.00 $160.00
Switches 10 $27.50 $275.00
MT Propeller MTV-5 Constant Speed 1 $17,000.00 $17,000.00
Grove Main Gear 1 $1,700.00 $1,700.00
Nose Gear 1 $3,500.00 $3,500.00
Door Seals 2 $800.00 $1,600.00
Fuel Tank Senders 3 $139.80 $419.40
Fuel Line 1 $100.00 $100.00
Electric Fuel Pump 1 $47.00 $47.00
Fuel Cutoff valve and Fixtures 1 $200.00 $200.00
Fuel Caps 2 $349.50 $699.00
Landing Light 1 $550.00 $550.00
Lighting Exterior 1 $1,150.00 $1,150.00
Lighting Interior 4 $168.79 $675.16
Batteries 2 $137.95 $275.90
Acrylic Windows 1 $4,000.00 $4,000.00
Pressurization 1 $15,000.00 $15,000.00
Air Conditioning 1 $6,000.00 $6,000.00
Seats and Upholstery 1 $4,000.00 $4,000.00
Seat Belts 4 $300.00 $1,200.00
Control Sticks 2 $199.50 $399.00
Paint or Wrap 1 $10,000.00 $10,000.00
Tires 6x6 3 $119.00 $357.00
Berringer Wheels and Brakes 1 $7,900.00 $7,900.00

Total Retail Cost $176,311.46

What you will actually pay $130,000.00

_________________
dino

"TRUTH is AUTHORITY..... Authority is not Truth"


Top

 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 25 Apr 2017, 19:32 
Offline


User avatar
 WWW  Profile




Joined: 08/10/14
Posts: 1727
Post Likes: +828
Location: Northwest Arkansas (KVBT)
Aircraft: TBM850
Username Protected wrote:
Lance is saying that the usual problem of per-combustion-event energy transfers into and back out of the propeller (described by the articles linked below) is much worse with a diesel engine.

http://www.epi-eng.com/piston_engine_technology/torsional_excitation_from_piston_engines.htm

http://www.epi-eng.com/propeller_technology/propeller_vibration_issues.htm

Didn't have time to read through the EPI content yet, but wouldn't the use of a reduction belt drive minimize any vibration related to the propeller?

Quote:
It will have a dual kevlar cogged belt driven PSRU to reduce the prop speed to about 2000rpm.
http://www.raptor-aircraft.com/engine.html


Top

 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 25 Apr 2017, 20:06 
Offline



 Profile




Joined: 11/22/12
Posts: 2567
Post Likes: +2325
Company: Retired
Location: Lynnwood, WA (KPAE)
Aircraft: 1993 Bonanza A36TN
Username Protected wrote:
The history of auto engine conversions shows that getting them to certification level of reliability requires substituting so many custom parts that the cost savings evaporate.
Diamond AE-300 engines have done well, and they share a lot of parts with the production MB engines.
But it didn't make them cheaper, they're still more expensive than conventional aircraft engines. When Diamond offered owners of Thielert-powered DA-42s the option of re-engining their planes, converting to AE-300 power cost $145,000 vs. $125,000 for Lycoming.

Here's a video that explains all the MB parts they remove and replace with custom stuff, basically everything except the long block.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kRL-2033lok

Top

 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 25 Apr 2017, 20:09 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 11/06/10
Posts: 11879
Post Likes: +2846
Company: Looking
Location: Outside Boston, or some hotel somewhere
Aircraft: None
Username Protected wrote:
Didn't have time to read through the EPI content yet, but wouldn't the use of a reduction belt drive minimize any vibration related to the propeller?


Minimize no. It just changes the frequency; which can be beneficial depending on what you are doing.
Now the belt with idle tensioners on both sides of the power pulley can be used to reduce/eliminate TV. How to actually accomplish this is way over my head. :)

Tim


Top

 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 25 Apr 2017, 20:44 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 08/21/13
Posts: 877
Post Likes: +590
Location: Charlotte NC (KEQY)
Aircraft: 1972 58 (TH-237)
Username Protected wrote:
They should just bolt this engine to the plane....

https://eps.aero/

They have been making steady progress on this engine, with a goal of
certification in 2017. (Not bad since they predicted 2016 certification in 2013, so slipping, but not by much) The company looks like the real deal.

Its my understanding that they have received all of the investment they need to reach certification.

I actually think that one of these engines bolted to a lanciair evolution would be ideal.
It would have more than enough range to go anywhere in the world.

Where is the steady progress? Their "Latest Update" was 3 years ago: https://eps.aero/latest-updates/


Top

 Post subject: Re: Raptor Aircraft 5 Seat Pressurized 3,600 NM Range Die
PostPosted: 25 Apr 2017, 21:51 
Offline




User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 12/10/07
Posts: 30319
Post Likes: +10475
Location: Minneapolis, MN (KFCM)
Aircraft: 1970 Baron B55
Username Protected wrote:
This from their site...


From that list the avionics total is $37,500 a bit less than half of my guess (I was thinking of certified avionics) but it's also a pretty minimal panel for a 200+ kt high altitude cruiser. No stormscope, backup instruments etc.

I'm also wondering how a "kit" consisting of prefab fuselage, wings, and tail plus a bunch of systems to install can meet the 51% rule but Epic managed about the same thing if the builder spent a month at the factor being "assisted".

_________________
-lance

It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled.


Top

Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic  [ 4045 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15 ... 270  Next



Concorde Battery (banner)

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  

Terms of Service | Forum FAQ | Contact Us

BeechTalk, LLC is the quintessential Beechcraft Owners & Pilots Group providing a forum for the discussion of technical, practical, and entertaining issues relating to all Beech aircraft. These include the Bonanza (both V-tail and straight-tail models), Baron, Debonair, Duke, Twin Bonanza, King Air, Sierra, Skipper, Sport, Sundowner, Musketeer, Travel Air, Starship, Queen Air, BeechJet, and Premier lines of airplanes, turboprops, and turbojets.

BeechTalk, LLC is not affiliated or endorsed by the Beechcraft Corporation, its subsidiaries, or affiliates. Beechcraft™, King Air™, and Travel Air™ are the registered trademarks of the Beechcraft Corporation.

Copyright© BeechTalk, LLC 2007-2024

.blackwell-85x50.png.
.aircraftassociates-85x50.png.
.sierratrax-85x50.png.
.aviationdesigndouble.jpg.
.Wingman 85x50.png.
.bpt-85x50-2019-07-27.jpg.
.saint-85x50.jpg.
.AAI.jpg.
.midwest2.jpg.
.Genesys_85x50.jpg.
.boomerang-85x50-2023-12-17.png.
.Rocky-Mountain-Turbine-85x100.jpg.
.wat-85x50.jpg.
.gallagher_85x50.jpg.
.avionwealth-85x50.png.
.traceaviation-85x150.png.
.CiESVer2.jpg.
.kadex-85x50.jpg.
.daytona.jpg.
.ei-85x150.jpg.
.MountainAirframe.jpg.
.dbm.jpg.
.blackhawk-85x100-2019-09-25.jpg.
.cjx-85x50.jpg.
.one-mile-up-85x100.png.
.kingairacademy-85x100.png.
.Foreflight_85x50_color.png.
.headsetsetc_Small_85x50.jpg.
.airmart-85x150.png.
.centex-85x50.jpg.
.tempest.jpg.
.Wentworth_85x100.JPG.
.concorde.jpg.
.ssv-85x50-2023-12-17.jpg.
.cav-85x50.jpg.
.Marsh.jpg.
.pure-medical-85x150.png.
.SCA.jpg.
.bullardaviation-85x50-2.jpg.
.ABS-85x100.jpg.
.kingairnation-85x50.png.
.Latitude.jpg.
.shortnnumbers-85x100.png.
.pdi-85x50.jpg.
.lucysaviation-85x50.png.
.geebee-85x50.jpg.
.jetacq-85x50.jpg.
.stanmusikame-85x50.jpg.
.tat-85x100.png.
.aeroled-85x50-2022-12-06.jpg.
.camguard.jpg.
.chairmanaviation-85x50.jpg.
.planelogix-85x100-2015-04-15.jpg.
.temple-85x100-2015-02-23.jpg.
.aircraftferry-85x50.jpg.
.wilco-85x100.png.
.jandsaviation-85x50.jpg.